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Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
#1695593
11/07/14 09:28 AM
11/07/14 09:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,015
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,015
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I would like to here from anyone having built a normally aspirated Gen 3 motor, with hp made and total cost. Pump gas, e85, race gas, injection or carbs, it is all good to hear about. There are more people out there than me I am sure that are interested in a getting a better picture of what is doable.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: gregsdart]
#1695594
11/07/14 11:40 AM
11/07/14 11:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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I would love to see the true answer on this one.
69 Dart
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1695596
11/07/14 03:14 PM
11/07/14 03:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
AlexP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
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 -Stock bore, stock piston 6.1 shortblock. Fresh bearings throughout. Crank turned .010/.010 -Factory rings, top ring opened up to .021 (should be the key to making the pistons not break) -Frank Racing 219/227 on a 112 LSA -GTP ported 5.7 eagle heads. 68cc closed chamber, fully ported. -11.2:1 static, 9.2:1 Dynamic -Stock 6.1 intake with BBK 80mm TB. Factory 6.1 fuel rails and SRT4 stage 1 injectors -EFISource MS3 Gold box -170* Thermostat -Billet Tech Catch can -TTI 1 3/4 headers with 2.5" H-pipe and turbo mufflers. -4 speed 833, 8.75 axle. Minimal drivetrain loss. I expect 1.3 to 1.5 hp/ci out of this motor. 490-556 hp out of it. A little more if I can get the intake opened up to 90mm and put a bigger TB on it. I think I'll be really happy with this cheap and mild combo. I can't comment on prices because I've been very fortunate, but this can be done very cheap if you horse trade and wait for good deals. Here is what I expect the car to sound like. YOUTUBE LINK Those are the same specs as my cam.
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: AlexP]
#1695597
11/07/14 04:33 PM
11/07/14 04:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I have about 7K in mine. I have bought a bunch of discounted parts along the way to. Rotating assembly is expensive but along same lines as any other build.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: AlexP]
#1695599
11/07/14 06:32 PM
11/07/14 06:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
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How much power do you get for 7K?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1695601
11/07/14 07:15 PM
11/07/14 07:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I forgot to add the $1500 for EFI and $800 for headers so roughly $9300 ish. I traded a 19 yr old flat top 400/451 for a almost complete 6.1 that needed rebuilt. So im around $6500 out of pocket IMO. The combo I have usually dyno's 500-560 RWHP in an LX car with the factory NAG 1 trans so im thinking my engine should be in the 600-650hp range. But this is far from an all out build, its EFI, hydraulic roller, non adjustable/no maintenance and pump 91 friendly that can be driven across country, which I plan to do with some road racing in between.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1695602
11/07/14 07:57 PM
11/07/14 07:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
AlexP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
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Quote:
I forgot to add the $1500 for EFI and $800 for headers so roughly $9300 ish. I traded a 19 yr old flat top 400/451 for a almost complete 6.1 that needed rebuilt. So im around $6500 out of pocket IMO. The combo I have usually dyno's 500-560 RWHP in an LX car with the factory NAG 1 trans so im thinking my engine should be in the 600-650hp range. But this is far from an all out build, its EFI, hydraulic roller, non adjustable/no maintenance and pump 91 friendly that can be driven across country, which I plan to do with some road racing in between.
That sums up what I did, except I lost track of all the BB stuff and spare hemi stuff I sold.
I'm going to try and only keep up on oil changes/chassis lubrication and fuel filters, Other than that I'm hoping it never needs to be torn down past the intake and valve covers.
I've got to make it to about 1000 miles before I can swap to synthetic oil and call the clutch broken in. Wade has about 6000 miles on his car since swapping to the Hemi and hes been beyond happy.
And yeah, the 426 ci motors are making way over 500rwhp from a NAG1 at like 25% drivetrain loss.
A big cam 426 took 340Rick to 9's....and its probably very streetable.
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: AlexP]
#1695603
11/07/14 10:51 PM
11/07/14 10:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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What weight and what mph did 340Rick show, Alex? As you would have guessed - Im a sceptic on most of the quoted rwhp figs on the forums. We rarely see the LX cars mph any where near close to what the dyno shops claim. However...dont want to go OT....but a recent post over there showed a 234@.50, .601 lift cnc head stock stroke 6.1 motor tuned by PWR make 450 rwhp. I think that was a pretty accurate guide on whats actually possible with stock rotating assembly considering the cam duration limitations BTW - that stick is the about biggest one you can fit without custom slugs...so its a worthwhile benchmark. PS - Not talking about custom stroker builds etc...just cammed and head mods
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: Moparmal]
#1695604
11/07/14 11:02 PM
11/07/14 11:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Costings - USD
Crate 6.1 $5500
Radiator inc fabrication, pulleys, alternator, sensors, catch can, electrc fans, $700
Pan and hardware, dipstick, Lokar trans dipper, & throttle linkage, TTI block off plate, TTI mounts $800
MSD with harness - $800
FWIW...I found all the " little stuff" like the Lokar , TTI and Milodon stuff really added to the bottom line.
I didnt cost in headers because mine was not a normal install.
So parts prices alone came to almost 8K.
My carb induction was offset by selling the EFI stuff.
Seems a lot can be saved by going with a used motor which will have alternator, pulleys etc.
67 RO23 clone with 6.1 SRT Hemi and dual quads. Soon to have Drag Pak induction and Throttle body.
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: AlexP]
#1695606
11/08/14 01:33 AM
11/08/14 01:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Alex - the HP calculators take weight into account - that's how they arrived at the formula...they plotted ET vs weight vs MPH vs KNOWN crank HP. Those big cars don't run high MPH because the motors aren't making the HP to pull the weight. Anyhow...I don't want to argue - work with me on the math and tell me where I may be going wrong... 1 - The factory 6.1 makes around 425 engine HP...call it 440 engine HP if you like....Agreed? 2 - Take 15% losses (which is being kind) = 377 REAR wheel HP (Probably less rwhp thru an auto) 3 - 500 rwhp less 377 rwhp = 123 RWHP So do you believe a Hyd roller cam and ported heads is adding 123(or more!) Rear Wheel HP..????? (thats close 170 engine HP) Dunno why people bother with nitrous if that's the case.............. My point is simply this - 450 rwhp for a [Email]230@.50[/Email] cam and ported heads is believable.... 500 RWHP is fairyland. I also know they CAN make the 500 rear wheel - just not with only an "off the shelf" stick and some cnc'd heads most guys stick with. Just my  
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: Moparmal]
#1695607
11/08/14 02:09 AM
11/08/14 02:09 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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My cam is 247/255 @ .050 and I hope it sounds decent. I paid $250 for it and I better get my monies worth!
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1695609
11/08/14 09:02 AM
11/08/14 09:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Hmmmmmm,............Wallace says around 610 engine HP for 121 @ 4100. As you know...ET is pretty irrelevant in hp calculations...too many variables, Assuming its auto and running a stall....Id say 20% losses would be fair......which makes for around 480 rear wheel....give or take Im not going to quibble over 20 rwhp....but I am interested in what else was done to that 5.7? Pretty solid return.....but what duration cam?...,what was done to the heads, intake , exhaust and was it running any accessories?  Wade/Alex........You can probably see where Im going with this ....there' a huge difference betwen a " cam and heads" swap and a well thought out build which upgrades every aspect of the power train for optimum performance.... Im just concerned people will think 500. Rwhp is "easy" FWIW....118 @ 4400 comes in around 580 crank or 460 rwhp....... ...
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Re: Gen 3 Normally asperated hp builds, cost? post yours!
[Re: Moparmal]
#1695610
11/08/14 10:53 AM
11/08/14 10:53 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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I agree with you Mal. 500 rwhp isn't likely from a stock short block Hemi, but track times that match up with that power level on the old hp / mph calculator are within reach if you dial the car in to the Nth degree. Alex's expectations from his build are spot on IMO. And yes, $7k could get you 500 rwhp- if you want to make sure you get the bragging number you'll want a stroker motor (5.7 block cheaper and will fit within $7k total build).
The above examples over performed on the track vs their actual dyno data. Definitely reflective of the fact that the hp/mph formula was developed using statistical data from drag cars and motors from previous decades.
The best example is the ~504 hp engine dyno 5.7 that went 11.21@ 119 at full weight. The owner and I discussed some of the outrageously high dyno numbers from similar builds (500+ rwhp from 370 ci 5.7 build if I remember correctly), and the conclusion was the other dyno was 'happy', and he couldn't wait to meet them on the track. The 504 hp owner also acknowledged the dyno is a tool for tuning and that's it.
I agree that the track is the best measure of an engines ability, and that formula is a good way to compare motors within a platform. Hemi builds in modern Mopars rarely dyno as well as their LSx counterparts, but they typically over perform their dyno numbers at the track. Unsure if that is related to their chassis, cam and intake selection, Cd, or what. I am unsure if that trend continues when drag pak intakes and more aggressive cams are used- those motors dyno quite well!
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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