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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686722
10/17/14 03:30 PM
10/17/14 03:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,037
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,037
Rio Linda, CA
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Every cam I've degreed in recent years was 4° advanced when installed "on the pin". I've always assumed this was to compensate for chain stretch.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686723
10/17/14 05:49 PM
10/17/14 05:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
ok, how do I check it with the open/close specs on the card?
Google "how to degree a camshaft" and take your pick...
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1686730
10/17/14 09:53 PM
10/17/14 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
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For the life of me i can't understand the reasoning for the cam manufactuers doing this. Just make it straight up. For a stock engine, dot to dot. Race cam degree it in like it should be. Maybe cam guys did this for the person who has no idea how to degree a cam in the first place but knows how to dot to dot. Reminds me of the time a dude brought me a 383 that wouldn't fall out a tree. Checked the cam and found a 8• retarded button on the cam pin and 4• retarded crank keyway. After i fixed it i told him not to touch the engine again, he said why...
Problem is dot 2 dot isn`t always where it should be......... 
For a 318 2barrel it is or any dead stock engine for that matter
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1686732
10/17/14 10:19 PM
10/17/14 10:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
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Wichita
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Quote:
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For the life of me i can't understand the reasoning for the cam manufactuers doing this. Just make it straight up. For a stock engine, dot to dot. Race cam degree it in like it should be. Maybe cam guys did this for the person who has no idea how to degree a cam in the first place but knows how to dot to dot. Reminds me of the time a dude brought me a 383 that wouldn't fall out a tree. Checked the cam and found a 8• retarded button on the cam pin and 4• retarded crank keyway. After i fixed it i told him not to touch the engine again, he said why...
Problem is dot 2 dot isn`t always where it should be.........
For a 318 2barrel it is or any dead stock engine for that matter
Any time you introduce aftermarket parts into the mix, you run the risk of parts not being machined or stamped correctly.
I always degree a cam even if its a stock rebuild!
Dot to dot does not cut it! 
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1686734
10/18/14 12:49 AM
10/18/14 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
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For the life of me i can't understand the reasoning for the cam manufactuers doing this. Just make it straight up. For a stock engine,
Some people CAN'T read, STOCK parts. Who said anything about after market parts, besides any John Does car comes in for a rebuild, whatever it is will be flat rated and out the door no cam degreeing no anything, get in the real world please. Machine shops can't compete with the sweat shop builders now poping out small block chevys for under a grand complete with 3 year 100,000 mile waranty, do you tjonk thdy degree a cam,heck do you think any of the big 3 degree their cams? It is a waste of time but you do it your way and the other 99.99% there way. Now go give Monte a kiss
Problem is dot 2 dot isn`t always where it should be.........
For a 318 2barrel it is or any dead stock engine for that matter
Any time you introduce aftermarket parts into the mix, you run the risk of parts not being machined or stamped correctly.
I always degree a cam even if its a stock rebuild!
Dot to dot does not cut it!
Thank you............as Monte said; Some may actually run well once they stop "ASSuming things are correct. 
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1686735
10/18/14 12:59 AM
10/18/14 12:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Doesnt matter what they say it is, it is what it is. Degree it to what it should be.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686739
10/18/14 05:09 AM
10/18/14 05:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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i degree'd it to 111 and the @50 specs don't match whats on the card. that's why i asked how to check @50 op/cl.
Maybe this will help..
268/2= 134-111= 23 BTDC
Check to see if that's what the intake is set at..
You should be good to go then..
Chris.. 
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: GY3]
#1686742
10/18/14 10:08 AM
10/18/14 10:08 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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As an example of "dot to dot", I installed a Cloyes Tru-roller and MP .528 mechanical in a 440 a few years ago. Dot to dot was 8° retarded!
Once you have the tools (cheap!)it's a simple process to do it every single time!
8* is 1 tooth on the cam gear and may be easier than adjusting the crank gear if it is not made for that much adv.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686743
10/18/14 10:11 AM
10/18/14 10:11 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
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master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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yes, i set it straight up to see where it was at and get some direction on which way to go. i advanced it with a 9way crank gear A2 slot and get 111.25, but the @50 intake close spec does not match card.
Did you account for the lash or could the lifter be sticking?
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686746
10/18/14 01:15 PM
10/18/14 01:15 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
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master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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Quote:
one thing that may be an issue is the crank socket doesn't fit tight enough on the keyway. i'v used several of these comp. sockets(Pontiac,sm chevy, bg chevy and mopar) and they all have slop in the keyway. I tried tightening them up with tape, but it doesn't eliminate all the slop. I get about 1* of movement either way.
Maybe if you cut some strips from a pop or beer can and shim the gap in the socket to the keyway it will work better how you want.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: Clanton]
#1686747
10/18/14 01:57 PM
10/18/14 01:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715
Wichita
GY3
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Wichita
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Quote:
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As an example of "dot to dot", I installed a Cloyes Tru-roller and MP .528 mechanical in a 440 a few years ago. Dot to dot was 8° retarded!
Once you have the tools (cheap!)it's a simple process to do it every single time!
8* is 1 tooth on the cam gear and may be easier than adjusting the crank gear if it is not made for that much adv.
That's what I did. Still, gear was misstamped!
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686751
10/18/14 03:34 PM
10/18/14 03:34 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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ok, I was gonna use a trimmed piece of feeler gage, but i'll try the beer can. i'm second guessing myself because as I barred the engine I noticed the exhaust lifter was on the lobe past TDC, alittle further than I thought it should.
on the opening of intake lobe there is overlap of the exh lobe until after TDC a little.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: Clanton]
#1686752
10/18/14 03:56 PM
10/18/14 03:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,355
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,355
Bend,OR USA
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The wider the LSA, the less overlap at TDC  OP, I have several different degree wheels, I haven't found the perfect one yet  The width of the pointer can have a affect on how they read, as much as 1/2 degree   BTW, I've yet to see a motor that would react to one degree change of valve timing LSA or lobe center timing on the dyno or at the track, maybe the little C.I. motors will react to that 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686754
10/19/14 09:37 AM
10/19/14 09:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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Im a little surprised here. There is a lot of information being tossed around here,but no one has asked the question, " who SPECD the cam". Typically,in a Procharger application,someone with pressure or boosted knowledge is involved in the cam selection process. Just like in turbo,charged anf nitrous set up,you start seeing some wider LSAs for a reason.Just because the cam card says Xxx degrees ground in, it doesnt mean it MUST be installed there. I would ask the person who actually specd the cam and or Procharger first if it was my momey 
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1686755
10/19/14 12:24 PM
10/19/14 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
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Steve Morris spec'ed the cam and bullet ground it. I just ordered a new dial indicator with mag base as my old one was questionable.
Last edited by mopar dave; 10/19/14 12:36 PM.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1686756
10/19/14 12:46 PM
10/19/14 12:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Im a little surprised here. There is a lot of information being tossed around here,but no one has asked the question, " who SPECD the cam". Typically,in a Procharger application,someone with pressure or boosted knowledge is involved in the cam selection process. Just like in turbo,charged anf nitrous set up,you start seeing some wider LSAs for a reason.Just because the cam card says Xxx degrees ground in, it doesnt mean it MUST be installed there. I would ask the person who actually specd the cam and or Procharger first if it was my momey
that's what I did. Steve Morris was my starting point also. Ended up with a comp cams grind.
I always use the positive stop method to find true TDC. Most accurate way. I also run my dial indicator directly off the lifter ( home made with 2 lifters and a section of pipe in between ). To eliminate any confusion, I always degree using the opening / closing #'s ( @.050) on the cam card. I don't do all the lobes, but I dodo  one intake and one exhaust. Never had a cam where one # lined up while others didn't. Possible though, as I never checked them all. 
Fastest 300
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: Crizila]
#1686758
10/19/14 07:16 PM
10/19/14 07:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Im a little surprised here. There is a lot of information being tossed around here,but no one has asked the question, " who SPECD the cam". Typically,in a Procharger application,someone with pressure or boosted knowledge is involved in the cam selection process. Just like in turbo,charged anf nitrous set up,you start seeing some wider LSAs for a reason.Just because the cam card says Xxx degrees ground in, it doesnt mean it MUST be installed there. I would ask the person who actually specd the cam and or Procharger first if it was my momey
that's what I did. Steve Morris was my starting point also. Ended up with a comp cams grind.
I always use the positive stop method to find true TDC. Most accurate way. I also run my dial indicator directly off the lifter ( home made with 2 lifters and a section of pipe in between ). To eliminate any confusion, I always degree using the opening / closing #'s ( @.050) on the cam card. I don't do all the lobes, but I dodo one intake and one exhaust. Never had a cam where one # lined up while others didn't. Possible though, as I never checked them all.
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686761
10/27/14 01:52 AM
10/27/14 01:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
ok, finished degreeing cam today. I check open/close numbers. card says 23 open and 65 close. @.050 open I get 22 and @.050 before max lift I get 65. am I doing this right? the install centerline is correct at 111*. thanks
With a 268* duration cam, a .050 23 open BTDC and a close ABDC of 65* will be at a 111* ICL Your at 22/65 close enough. Im always off by a half degree or so. Tolerances when measuring ICL, is tough to get it closer then that. And its not needed, to be more accurate then that.
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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in
[Re: mopar dave]
#1686763
10/27/14 03:18 PM
10/27/14 03:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,355
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,355
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
I thought the @50 open/close numbers where measured at .050 open and .050 just before close, but at the 50 before close I got 115. didn't match card, so I tried 50 after max lift and no match either. 50 before max lift and I get 65.
why do they give the close point at .050 before max lift?
i'm done with it now. I told him to check valve clearance and button it up. thanks
They don't provide any information on .050 before or after max lift on any cam card I ever seen Most of the checking numbers on the cam card are in reference to before top dead center BTDC and after bottom dead center ABDC on the intake and before bottom dead center BBDC and after top dead center, ATDC, on the exhaust Finding the max lobe lift on the exhaust and intake lobes in relation to BTDC and ATDC is the hard part without coaching, mentoring, or further instructions
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Degree it where it is suppose to be and be happy 
The confusion on this always comes in with the "ground in" statement. As cab said, put it in per the cam manufacturers recommendation. Kinda silly to second guess them right off the bat. After you have run the car for a while and you feel you need more power at the bottom or top end, then you can go ahead and make a change. 
I moved it one tooth to the left and the dang thang line up to the left a tiny bit and degree in where it shoud have been 
