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Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Thumperdart] #1686734
10/18/14 12:49 AM
10/18/14 12:49 AM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

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For the life of me i can't understand the reasoning for the cam manufactuers doing this. Just make it straight up. For a stock engine,



Some people CAN'T read, STOCK parts. Who said anything about after market parts, besides any John Does car comes in for a rebuild, whatever it is will be flat rated and out the door no cam degreeing no anything, get in the real world please. Machine shops can't compete with the sweat shop builders now poping out small block chevys for under a grand complete with 3 year 100,000 mile waranty, do you tjonk thdy degree a cam,heck do you think any of the big 3 degree their cams? It is a waste of time but you do it your way and the other 99.99% there way. Now go give Monte a kiss

Problem is dot 2 dot isn`t always where it should be.........



For a 318 2barrel it is or any dead stock engine for that matter




Any time you introduce aftermarket parts into the mix, you run the risk of parts not being machined or stamped correctly.

I always degree a cam even if its a stock rebuild!

Dot to dot does not cut it!




Thank you............as Monte said; Some may actually run well once they stop "ASSuming things are correct.



Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: cudaman1969] #1686735
10/18/14 12:59 AM
10/18/14 12:59 AM
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Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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Doesnt matter what they say it is, it is what it is. Degree it to what it should be.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: 72Swinger] #1686736
10/18/14 01:23 AM
10/18/14 01:23 AM
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PA.
pittsburghracer Online work
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1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: pittsburghracer] #1686737
10/18/14 04:29 AM
10/18/14 04:29 AM
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Balt. Md
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383man Offline
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As said set it on 111. To me dot to dot is just a starting point and means nothing as you should always check and set the cam on any race/high performance eng. Dot to dot is not always right as many chains will not have the cam right on so as I said its just a starting point to me so you can install the cam close enough to check and degree it. You could put it in dot to dot and have 112 on one chain and gear set and 107 on another. Straight up just means you set the Installed Centerline to the Lobe Seperation Angle. You have to move the installed centerline to 111 to be 4 degrees advanced. Good luck , Ron

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Cab_Burge] #1686738
10/18/14 05:02 AM
10/18/14 05:02 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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i degree'd it to 111 and the @50 specs don't match whats on the card. that's why i asked how to check @50 op/cl.

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: mopar dave] #1686739
10/18/14 05:09 AM
10/18/14 05:09 AM
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Arizona
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Chris'sBarracuda Offline
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Quote:

i degree'd it to 111 and the @50 specs don't match whats on the card. that's why i asked how to check @50 op/cl.





Maybe this will help..

268/2= 134-111= 23 BTDC

Check to see if that's what the intake is set at..

You should be good to go then..



Chris..

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: 383man] #1686740
10/18/14 05:10 AM
10/18/14 05:10 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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yes, i set it straight up to see where it was at and get some direction on which way to go. i advanced it with a 9way crank gear A2 slot and get 111.25, but the @50 intake close spec does not match card.

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: mopar dave] #1686741
10/18/14 08:50 AM
10/18/14 08:50 AM
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GY3 Offline
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As an example of "dot to dot", I installed a Cloyes Tru-roller and MP .528 mechanical in a 440 a few years ago. Dot to dot was 8° retarded!

Once you have the tools (cheap!)it's a simple process to do it every single time!

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: GY3] #1686742
10/18/14 10:08 AM
10/18/14 10:08 AM
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northern,Ohio,USA
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Clanton Offline
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Quote:

As an example of "dot to dot", I installed a Cloyes Tru-roller and MP .528 mechanical in a 440 a few years ago. Dot to dot was 8° retarded!

Once you have the tools (cheap!)it's a simple process to do it every single time!




8* is 1 tooth on the cam gear and may be easier than adjusting the crank gear if it is not made for that much adv.


GOTBOOST!New improved with Victor heads.
http://www.enginelabs.com/mopar-big-bloc...t-of-necessity/
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: mopar dave] #1686743
10/18/14 10:11 AM
10/18/14 10:11 AM
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northern,Ohio,USA
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Clanton Offline
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Quote:

yes, i set it straight up to see where it was at and get some direction on which way to go. i advanced it with a 9way crank gear A2 slot and get 111.25, but the @50 intake close spec does not match card.



Did you account for the lash or could the lifter be sticking?


GOTBOOST!New improved with Victor heads.
http://www.enginelabs.com/mopar-big-bloc...t-of-necessity/
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Clanton] #1686744
10/18/14 12:25 PM
10/18/14 12:25 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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one thing that may be an issue is the crank socket doesn't fit tight enough on the keyway. i'v used several of these comp. sockets(Pontiac,sm chevy, bg chevy and mopar) and they all have slop in the keyway. I tried tightening them up with tape, but it doesn't eliminate all the slop. I get about 1* of movement either way.

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1686745
10/18/14 12:27 PM
10/18/14 12:27 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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thanks chris, i'll give that a try.

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: mopar dave] #1686746
10/18/14 01:15 PM
10/18/14 01:15 PM
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Clanton Offline
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Quote:

one thing that may be an issue is the crank socket doesn't fit tight enough on the keyway. i'v used several of these comp. sockets(Pontiac,sm chevy, bg chevy and mopar) and they all have slop in the keyway. I tried tightening them up with tape, but it doesn't eliminate all the slop. I get about 1* of movement either way.



Maybe if you cut some strips from a pop or beer can and shim the gap in the socket to the keyway it will work better how you want.


GOTBOOST!New improved with Victor heads.
http://www.enginelabs.com/mopar-big-bloc...t-of-necessity/
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Clanton] #1686747
10/18/14 01:57 PM
10/18/14 01:57 PM
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

As an example of "dot to dot", I installed a Cloyes Tru-roller and MP .528 mechanical in a 440 a few years ago. Dot to dot was 8° retarded!

Once you have the tools (cheap!)it's a simple process to do it every single time!




8* is 1 tooth on the cam gear and may be easier than adjusting the crank gear if it is not made for that much adv.




That's what I did. Still, gear was misstamped!

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Clanton] #1686748
10/18/14 02:23 PM
10/18/14 02:23 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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8* is 1 tooth on the cam gear and may be easier than adjusting the crank gear if it is not made for that much adv.


What motor did you find that one tooth is eight degrees? I found on the Cloyes double roller timing sets for BB Mopars that one tooth on the cam gear was twelve degrees That gear set needed the cam dot a tiny bit to the left of the crank dot to make it degree in correctly When I first inbstalled that gear set the cam dot was a tiny bit to the right(looking from the front of the motor)of the crank dot instead of straight up, it was retarded twelve degrees no matter which keyway I used on the crank sprocket I moved it one tooth to the left and the dang thang line up to the left a tiny bit and degree in where it shoud have been That is the main reason I insist on here and to anyones that ask me to ALWAY degree the cam when changing any part of the timing gear set or cams


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Clanton] #1686749
10/18/14 02:32 PM
10/18/14 02:32 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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ok, I was gonna use a trimmed piece of feeler gage, but i'll try the beer can. i'm second guessing myself because as I barred the engine I noticed the exhaust lifter was on the lobe past TDC, alittle further than I thought it should.

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Clanton] #1686750
10/18/14 03:25 PM
10/18/14 03:25 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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yes, solid roller. the degree wheel have has 0 to 180 in both directions. I have seen wheels that go from right to left 0 to 360. which one is easier to use?

Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: mopar dave] #1686751
10/18/14 03:34 PM
10/18/14 03:34 PM
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Clanton Offline
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Quote:

ok, I was gonna use a trimmed piece of feeler gage, but i'll try the beer can. i'm second guessing myself because as I barred the engine I noticed the exhaust lifter was on the lobe past TDC, alittle further than I thought it should.



on the opening of intake lobe there is overlap of the exh lobe until after TDC a little.


GOTBOOST!New improved with Victor heads.
http://www.enginelabs.com/mopar-big-bloc...t-of-necessity/
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: Clanton] #1686752
10/18/14 03:56 PM
10/18/14 03:56 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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The wider the LSA, the less overlap at TDC OP, I have several different degree wheels, I haven't found the perfect one yet The width of the pointer can have a affect on how they read, as much as 1/2 degree BTW, I've yet to see a motor that would react to one degree change of valve timing LSA or lobe center timing on the dyno or at the track, maybe the little C.I. motors will react to that


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: degreeing cams with advance ground in [Re: mopar dave] #1686753
10/19/14 03:08 AM
10/19/14 03:08 AM
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Las Vegas, NV
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Generally when degreeing camshafts one of the ways to degree it in is to use the ICL (intake centerline method) which is basically a measurement of the relationship of the intake lobe centerline to the crankshaft position not to be confused with the LSA (lobe seperation angle) which is a reference to the relationship of the intake centerline and exhaust centerline to each other, sometimes the numbers are the same on the cam card but they have completely different meanings, you can change the ICL by advancing or retarding the camshaft but you can't change the the LSA since that is already ground in from the cam manufacturer.

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