Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#1663044
08/26/14 12:33 PM
08/26/14 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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One thing you guys have missed is the altitude. DA of 4500 feet cuts power by maybe 15%. Tucson is altitude 2600 feet, plus a hot day???
A few years ago I ventured to Phoenix in the summer, truck was jetted for 5000 ft. I was expecting lean surging, etc. But it ran normally. The only reason I can think of is the air was not dense because of the temperature.
I prescribe compression and if possible a better combustion chamber. I also think the cam is too big, kills bottom end, and the heads are too small, kills the top end.
But what do I know? Try advancing the cam first, see if you can get a better 60'.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 08/26/14 12:47 PM.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663046
08/26/14 12:57 PM
08/26/14 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Regarding compression, I know it's holding me back a good amount.
Cutting mine down does seem tempting though as does advancing the cam. I've contemplated advancing the cam, even considered swapping rocker arms to 1.6's. Again, these are substantially cheaper projects and involve modifying or changing parts I already have so perhaps that adds appeal.
No reason to rebuild, cutting them down is easy to gain comp. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif)
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: B3RE]
#1663047
08/26/14 02:26 PM
08/26/14 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
I'm not asking you to bite anything. It's obvious the car needs more low end and more rpm. Do you already have a smaller cam? If not, that will cost you money. Correcting the valvetrain will depend on how it's done. What other rockers do you have? Out of all the advice given, you want a guarantee from me. Sounds like you think I know something. How's this, I guarantee it's wrong and I guarantee my solution will make it right. The rest is up to you.
Just to clarify, I was surprised by your assessment on the valvetrain instability. With a block and heads that have not been cut, in general a low lift cam, no details on brand of rocker arms, valve stem height, etc, you felt that the valvetrain geometry was an issue. I'm not saying it's perfect or that its wrong and I will certainly look into it. I just thought that was an odd assessment, not to discredit it.
I know you've discussed your correction kits in the past with others and from your ad as well as posts, stand firmly behind them. I will certainly give you a call if upon inspection the geometry seems incorrect.
One last question for you. When you say "Valvetrain instability" is a problem in my application, are you suggesting that I am not getting full lift from my cam and that's hindering performance or that I am putting excessive thrust on one side of my valve guides and causing a bind/ excessive drag? I assume both. However, if in your opinion the cam is already oversized which I partially agree with, I would see no benefit from the added lift and only gains from the reduced thrust at the guide? Thoughts? ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shruggy.gif)
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663048
08/26/14 03:03 PM
08/26/14 03:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Trent, Please don't misunderstand. I wasn't bashing your car when I said it was wrong. I've seen too many of these combinations to just know when I see them. I'll make you a deal. I have never done this before and will likely never do it again. I'll send you a kit and you buy the pushrods. That way we both have skin in the game. If the rpm issue is corrected, you purchase the kit. If it doesn't fix it, send back the kit and the purhrods with the receipt, and I'll pay for them and the shipping. You lose nothing. That's a guarantee you can't beat. Then we will work on the cam. Your thoughts?
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: B3RE]
#1663050
08/26/14 05:46 PM
08/26/14 05:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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That is a nice offer there Mike, and I think Trent should except it. But Trent that still wont get you into the 11,s You will need the extra compression as well. Mike didnt say it would either, just that it might solve your RPM issue of 5800 rpms. Further I disagree with Mike that your engine rpm shift point should be a 1000 rpm more then your 5800 RPM. It should be more like 6200 with a 6400 across the line rpm max, not the 6800 that Mike suggests. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif) But, nice offer by Mike, and I hope you take him up on it. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif)
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: Sport440]
#1663052
08/26/14 06:47 PM
08/26/14 06:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Thanks Sport, You're right, I didn't say it would get him into the 11's. That's why I said we would address the cam after getting the valvetrain stabilized. Most et is gained the first half of the track, so he needs to pick up the bottom end for that. He suggested a shift point of 5600/5800. I said 1000 rpm higher because his peak power should be somewhere around where he is shifting now. Best et's are found 800 to 1000 rpm above peak power. Obviously, that is a generality, but it should be close. FWIW, I hope Trent takes me up on it, too.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: B3RE]
#1663053
08/26/14 08:31 PM
08/26/14 08:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
Trent, Please don't misunderstand. I wasn't bashing your car when I said it was wrong. I've seen too many of these combinations to just know when I see them. I'll make you a deal. I have never done this before and will likely never do it again. I'll send you a kit and you buy the pushrods. That way we both have skin in the game. If the rpm issue is corrected, you purchase the kit. If it doesn't fix it, send back the kit and the purhrods with the receipt, and I'll pay for them and the shipping. You lose nothing. That's a guarantee you can't beat. Then we will work on the cam. Your thoughts?
Ok, here is where I am on this.
1.) I'm assuming we are going to determine the success of this based upon the following. If the car runs the same E.T or better shifting at 6000RPM or more(you tell me), as it does shifting at 5600/5800 as previously tested, we call it an improvement? If E.T drops off as previously discussed, we call it a fail?
2.) I'll pay you half the cost of your kit up front. If the kit is successful, I'll pay you the other half and sing your praises to anyone who will listen. If the kit doesn't improve the RPM issue, I'll eat the cost of the pushrods and the half I already paid you and we call it a wash and discuss our next approach.
3.) Just for clarification, am I going to need cut to fit pushrods or what length? Also, are there any issues regarding valve cover clearances I need to be concerned with when using your kit? ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shruggy.gif)
I want to be fair with you. You tell me what works for you. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beer.gif)
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663054
08/26/14 08:45 PM
08/26/14 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,155 Tucson, Arizona
clonestocker
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,155
Tucson, Arizona
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Trent,
Your pretty scienced out on your car. Has your Dad thrown any input at it. PM me your #. We'll chat a bit. I'm curious as to what might be left to be adjusted. matt
[img] [/img]
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663056
08/26/14 09:35 PM
08/26/14 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Trent, I appreciate your concern about being fair with me. That says a lot about your character. The reason I made my offer is because I understand you are a bit skeptical and conversely, I am that confident in the end result. I've already seen those results in dyno and track testing in combinations similar to yours. I would rather be paid for the kit all at once, just from a paperwork perspective, so why don't you wait till after you try it. As far as the pushrods go, I am ok with whatever you want to do but stand behind my original offer. The success will be considered increased rpm and no loss of performance. Anything else is a fail. It needs to be an apples to apples comparison, so making passes without the kit and then switching to the kit with the same conditions. You will need custom length pushrods to fit properly. If you have a favored vendor, go with them, or I can supply them for you. I also have length checking pushrods available.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1663057
08/26/14 09:41 PM
08/26/14 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Hocus Pocus won't show up on dyno or track testing. For every Mopar racer who never had valvetrain issues, there are 50 who have. I run into several every time I go to the track.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1663059
08/26/14 10:55 PM
08/26/14 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Agreed. So since that is part of what I am addressing, I guess your saying what I do isn't Hocus Pocus after all. Thanks for the affirmation and your support.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663061
08/26/14 11:51 PM
08/26/14 11:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Trent, You should see an et gain simply because of the ability to shift at a higher rpm. As I mentioned to Sport440, the best et's are found at 800 to 1000 rpm above peak power in most cases and you are nowhere near that. I figure you should be able to shift at 6500 to start and work your way up until it slows down. I would do a "before and after" at 6000 just to get a true comparison without pushing the motor too far into valve float without the kit.
BTW, PM sent.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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