Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
#1663004
08/24/14 04:10 PM
08/24/14 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Here's the deal, I've been trying to pick away at my car in a quest to beat an 11.99 or better out of it with small gains here and there It's a LOW BUCK, mild 440 in a GTX that's race ready weight is around 3,750 and currently runs 12.30s with D.A around 4,500. This is also a street car so it's full exhaust, full interior, lights, etc. I'll list the engine details below. I've been trying to avoid the tunnel ram, open exhaust and anything else that would lead people to believe it should be much faster than it is. I guess I'd rather have a quick street car than a slow race car if that makes any sense. I also have a few parts laying around for other projects that I am contemplating throwing at it which I will also list below. I was just curious as to whether I am being unrealistic looking for an 11.99 or if I have one particular component that's holding me back that should be changed. Any thoughts or input on how to improve the performance without throwing large amounts of money away are greatly appreciated. 440,Standard bore, Standard Stroke 9.1 Compression 906 Heads with 2.14/1.81 Valves Hooker 1 7/8 Headers, 3" Full exhaust, Flowmasters, No H or X Pipe Holley Street Dominator / M1 S.P Intake (Tried both) B/G 750 Silver Claw M.P 296/557 Camshaft J/W 3500 Stall converter Mallory Unilite @ 39* Total 4.56 Gears, 30" Rear Tire E.T is 1.69 60', 7.80's 1/8th, 12.30's @ 108+/- MPH It seems as though it doesn't make the top end power. I shift at 5600/5800 and trap around 6,000. Also, the car ran quicker with 4.56 gears than it did with 4.30's FWIW. BTW, already confirmed fuel pressure is a solid 7 Lbs well into 3rd gear. Fuel Delivery does not seem to be an issue. Spare parts I'm contemplating swapping in but hesitant about are: M1 Tunnel Ram w/660's (Race car appearance though.) Electric Water Pump Hooker 5209's (2" Primarys) and possibly add H-Pipe Dana 60 w/4:88 gears "Your idea here..." Thanks Guys!
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663006
08/24/14 04:29 PM
08/24/14 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Larger primary's, H/X pipe and low restriction mufflers ( reads straight throughs ) would all help. Running the CR up to 10 / 10.5. Tunnel ram would help. 4.88's would run you out of motor too soon IMO. Higher stall vert ( maybe 4500 / 5000 ) would help.
Fastest 300
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663009
08/24/14 05:54 PM
08/24/14 05:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,155 Tucson, Arizona
clonestocker
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,155
Tucson, Arizona
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Hey Trent, Wondered where you had been. Use some of Dad's parts . matt
[img] [/img]
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1663011
08/24/14 08:30 PM
08/24/14 08:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
Seems to me that you are doing really really well already! 12.30s and 3750 lbs...not bad.
Given your 108 trap speed I would agree that top end hp is where you could improve. How about a cold air induction system??? I picked up .25 seconds in a mild 440 cuda years ago.
Is there any weight to shed?
With the roadrunner hood there aren't many options for fresh air. I did try to pull the inserts from the front of the hood to see if the openings would net any fresh air, it made no difference. I think the openings are to small and to low in the air stream to be functional. When I ran the tunnel ram in the past with a hole in a flat hood, it picked up 2-3 tenths, probably due to the fresh air in part. They do make a fiberglass Roadrunner hood. I think they are around $350 plus shipping. Just not sure it's dollar to e.t gain is justifiable. I've got a couple areas I could trim weight from, I just hate to do it at the expense of making it less of a street car. Everything is a compromise I guess.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: Crizila]
#1663013
08/24/14 08:47 PM
08/24/14 08:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
Larger primary's, H/X pipe and low restriction mufflers ( reads straight throughs ) would all help. Running the CR up to 10 / 10.5. Tunnel ram would help. 4.88's would run you out of motor too soon IMO. Higher stall vert ( maybe 4500 / 5000 ) would help.
The car picks up about a tenth, with the exhaust cut outs removed. I know that the Flowmasters are very poor flowing from what I've heard but I was kind of fond of the sound. I think the 5209's and the addition of an H pipe would help assuming the Flowmasters aren't the plug in the system. I did bump the compression from 7.8 to 9.1 by swapping from smogger pistons to a set from a 69 motor. I was under the impression it would come out closer to 10:1. I wouldn't have bothered if I knew better.
I do think that what I gain in the 60' with the 4.88's will probably be lost at the top due to the higher trap RPM as you mentioned. I may have to rethink that approach, although it did pick up going from 4:30's to 4:56's so who knows.
As far as converter goes, I did the math on the slippage and it was less than 10% as I recall. I would have to confirm that though. I would not necessarily be opposed to a higher stall converter on the street. Years ago we had a 3500 stall T.C.I in my Dads Belvedere. Up until the day it died, that converter worked awesome. His car has never launched the same with a 3500 JW in place of it. I would love to get another T.C.I to see how it would do.
Think a 4500 stall would be to high for such a low revving combo?
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: AAR-B4]
#1663014
08/24/14 08:59 PM
08/24/14 08:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
"440,Standard bore, Standard Stroke"
May want to consider starting at the beginning. I'll wager these 35+ year old bores are oversize, out of round and tapered.
I did have it honed when I swapped from the smogger pisons to the 69 castings. However, the pistons were used and the block hasn't been bored, decked or line honed. It was a low buck motor and as such I'm sure I'm asking a lot of it. If I had known the compression would be so low even with the 69 pistons, I would have either square decked it at minimum or bought a real set of pistons. Lesson Learned.
Quote:
I'm no expert compared to a lot of you but I would look at head porting (no mention of it) and a bigger carb. The ET seems really good for the MPH.
Sheldon
The heads were ported with the M.P. Template kit FWIW. I also tried a Holley 850 in place of my 750 Silver Claw and the car slowed down if you can believe that. I still don't quite understand that. With the Tunnel Ram, I run two 660 CFM Holley's and it loves it. I was just trying to keep the motor under the hood for now though.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: Sport440]
#1663015
08/24/14 09:03 PM
08/24/14 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
Shave your heads .040/.050, 4500 vert, and add your electric water pump and your there. Might not even need the vert. But that would guarantee it.
Any real world numbers to be had with a swap to an electric water pump? I've always heard it wasn't worth much if you already removed the mechanical fan so I haven't bothered. I know it would make cool downs easier. You think that would be incentive enough for me.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1663017
08/24/14 09:39 PM
08/24/14 09:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Ross .030 over domes, bush the rods,850dp and find some heads. Leave everything else.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1663018
08/24/14 10:18 PM
08/24/14 10:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,475 Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,475
Sydney,Australia
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my 2 cents worth - get a larger carb , look at your gearing , exhaust . When I built my 440 it had 906 heads with home port/cleanup ( 10.4 comp),825 Mighty Demon , M1 single plane with 1" open spacer , 509 cam , 4200 stall, 3.9 gears and 28" radials . At around the same weight , over 3750lbs , it ran 11.80's
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663020
08/24/14 10:57 PM
08/24/14 10:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,368 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,368
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
I also tried a Holley 850 in place of my 750 Silver Claw and the car slowed down if you can believe that. I still don't quite understand that. With the Tunnel Ram, I run two 660 CFM Holley's and it loves it. I was just trying to keep the motor under the hood for now though.
As you have said the 850 Holley slowed the car down, usually when you add more air and fuel to 440 Mopars they go quicker and faster, I wonder what was or is wrong with that carb? Are you able to jet the carbs, both the single and duals, up enough to slow the car MPH down in the 1/4 mile? If not, pressure is not volume, there is a reason for that(not getting it fat enough to slow the car down, lack of fuel ) If so continue on One thing most guys don't try is to put in a lower 1st gear set I've done that several times using the Mopar brand helical cut 2.77 low gears, that wakes up the beast on the starting line As long as the rear tires will hold it 2.45x4.56= 11.172 starting line ratio, 2.77x4.56= 12.631
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1663021
08/24/14 11:21 PM
08/24/14 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225 Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Smaller chamber aluminum heads like stealths or rpms
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: Sport440]
#1663022
08/24/14 11:31 PM
08/24/14 11:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,733 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,733
Portage,michigan
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Quote:
Shave your heads .040/.050, 4500 vert, and add your electric water pump and your there. Might not even need the vert. But that would guarantee it.
Agree 100%
And the last thing I would do is put larger diameter headers on it. The ones installed are plenty adequate to support a much stouter motor than what you have.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam, footbrake street/strip car Best so far, 10.32 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1663023
08/24/14 11:44 PM
08/24/14 11:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,058 Mooresburg, Tn
'72CudaRacer
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,058
Mooresburg, Tn
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Don't know how much "budget" you have, but a conveter will be $600-$700, alum heads wil be $1200-$1600, cam & lifters $300-$400, ect. What head gaskets are on the engine? If they are the felpro 1009 or similar (which measure approx .040" thick), put on a set of steel shim gaskets (approx .017" thick). The cost is about $50-$60 (head, header and intake gaskets) and a days work. 4.88 gears will make it just about unstreetable. Cam timing could be usefull and cheap. Advance that cam about 4-5 degrees from recomended to get that boat moving. When at the strip, consider race fuel, then jet the carb up a size or two. With that low compression and small cam, 40-42+ total ignition timing is not a bad thing as long as you run good fuel (110 octane). All these things will add up and are cheap. The fuel and ignition timing can be adjusted back to sreet use. Good luck, you can get there. Brian
Last edited by '72CudaRacer; 08/24/14 11:49 PM.
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