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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#1662779
08/27/14 01:21 AM
08/27/14 01:21 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,139
Hunt Valley, Maryland
1fastrunner
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,139
Hunt Valley, Maryland
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I have to ask why? I got my cam for the lumpy idle. With it kicking in at 3000 RPM"s, I ask why did I get this cam? But I still love the lumpy idle 
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: 1fastrunner]
#1662780
08/27/14 03:42 PM
08/27/14 03:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
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Ok I check distributor shaft, and it is silver, not brass colored.
I am trying to write down the highlights of this and go speak with mechanic in next day or two.
What I have taken from this is to see where initial timing is and shoot for 20 degrees or so, with a total of 36.
My MP distributor should be ok if adjusted properly.
Turn idle speed higher (already done).
One thing I read and don't understand is the suggestion to adjust idle vacuum to 4". Not sure what that means. Does that mean set idle where I have that vacuum and not at certain RPM. I guess the mechanic will know, but I am curious.
I will try to have a resolution soon and not drag this out any longer than necessary.
Like I mentioned earlier; mechanic is excellent but not a Mopar guy. I wonder if I should just spring for a Mallory or MSD system that is more easily tuned and familiar to him?
Last edited by larrymopar360; 08/27/14 04:21 PM.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662781
08/27/14 06:01 PM
08/27/14 06:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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There was NO suggestion to tune to 4" of vacuum. Someone else was telling you about his situation.
The following is with vacuum advance disconnected and plugged:
In general, the suggestion was to increase initial advance until the vacuum at idle was at maximum. Then try starting the car with the engine warm and see if the engine "kicks back" against the starter. If that is so decrease initial advance by 2 degrees or so. This may take more than one iteration. When you have finally gotten the initial advance figured out, adjust the distributor to have no more than 36 degrees total advance, all in by 3000 or so rpm. This may mean shortening some slots or installing a bushing to limit total advance.
One thing for sure, the advance at idle should be rock-steady, the timing light showing the mark being still.
Once you have the initial set, and the total advance limited to the 35 or 36 degrees, then you reconnect the vacuum advance to the "ported vacuum" port on the carb. This should have no vacuum advance at idle, and when you open the throttle a little the vacuum advance works.
R.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: RobX4406]
#1662783
08/27/14 11:21 PM
08/27/14 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
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Ok, DogDays and RobX, got it. That is what I will do. Going to make an appointment to leave it with mechanic, and discuss issues and suggestions.
You reminded me of a couple of things that happened, but only once. Once when starting, it was slow to turn over for a second then turned over quickly and started right up. Kind of what I believe is the sound of the timing being off. Then, for the first time, today when I shut it off at work, it sounded like it ran-on for a second after key was off. I guess these indicate timing issues, along with the crappy idle. The car really does idle like there is a miss the more I drive it.
Will call mechanic tomorrow and hope he can take it on Monday. Thanks to all. I won't spend any money on parts yet.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: mikemee1331]
#1662787
08/28/14 12:22 PM
08/28/14 12:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,280
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,280
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Rhoads.
I believe he said it was a roller cam.
not seeing where that was said.
Quote:
I don't want to change out anything right now. It is a brand new internally balanced engine, and I sprung for the roller cam upgrade and other goodies, so I really can't afford nor want to start unbolting and replacing parts.
He also said he has an MP distributor , which one , new or old , was this what it had when it came from Muscle motors and a POS ORANGE BOX ....
Fix the ignition first then throw other parts at it .
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1662788
08/28/14 01:07 PM
08/28/14 01:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rhoads.
I believe he said it was a roller cam.
not seeing where that was said.
Quote:
I don't want to change out anything right now. It is a brand new internally balanced engine, and I sprung for the roller cam upgrade and other goodies, so I really can't afford nor want to start unbolting and replacing parts.
He also said he has an MP distributor , which one , new or old , was this what it had when it came from Muscle motors and a POS ORANGE BOX ....
Fix the ignition first then throw other parts at it .
I saw that John on my 2nd re-read and my 'spanking' from dogdays! I also aSSumed it was the same ignition system. that too was probably a mistake! 
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: mikemee1331]
#1662789
08/28/14 02:23 PM
08/28/14 02:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,280
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,280
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rhoads.
I believe he said it was a roller cam.
not seeing where that was said.
Quote:
I don't want to change out anything right now. It is a brand new internally balanced engine, and I sprung for the roller cam upgrade and other goodies, so I really can't afford nor want to start unbolting and replacing parts.
He also said he has an MP distributor , which one , new or old , was this what it had when it came from Muscle motors and a POS ORANGE BOX ....
Fix the ignition first then throw other parts at it .
I saw that John on my 2nd re-read and my 'spanking' from dogdays! I also aSSumed it was the same ignition system. that too was probably a mistake!
I missed a bunch , he has an OLD MP distributor , he said he bought it 3 yrs ago but doesn't say if it was new or used , currnet or NOS, but we know it's an old one.
I ASSuME he put that on after he received the engine from MM as I doubt they would have let it leave the shop without it being setup for both inital and max advance ?????
Anyway Larry if you are going to buy a new ignition I would Look at the latest and greatest from MSD , the plug and play that has built in rev limiter and other features ... I wish they would make this one for Low decks  ....
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1662790
08/29/14 12:06 AM
08/29/14 12:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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I tried power reading each reply but did you determine the initial timing?
Higher timing at idle will reduce the choppy idle.
Why stop at 15? because of your starter? Run it higher. I read you have enough vacuum for power brakes. How much vacuum are you pulling.
Running manifold vacuum advance is another way for achieving big timing numbers at idle.
How about a looser torque convertor?
A bigger exhaust system is another way to mash the sound.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: Magnum]
#1662791
08/29/14 05:11 PM
08/29/14 05:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
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Magnum: I know there is ALOT to read on this one. I don't know any of the timing settings except that install mechanic said he set it to total of 36 as recommended by engine builder (muscle motors). I bought the ignition system new about 3 years ago and was using it on another one of my cars with a 360, and it was working fine. It does not have the brass colored shaft, so I am told that makes it the Mallory unit. I have not found out what the other timing settings are. I haven't had a chance to make appt. with mechanic. I want to drive by and when I don't see a bunch of cars there I am going to stop by and chat. I hate to bug him because I know he has people stopping his progress all day. Took a drive by earlier and he was real busy. I have to drive one of my other cars in the mean time. Can't take the shaking and choppy idle. I am noticing more and more times when I go to start it turns over slow the first time then cranks fast and starts. Must be initial timing I guess.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662792
08/29/14 06:19 PM
08/29/14 06:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
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Just went and saw the mechanic. He says he set the initial timing around 22 and total at 36. He said he didn't want to go any higher with initial or car wouldn't start. I already have a little bit of slow turn over on first crank, then it cranks and starts. I asked about something that retards the timing at start and he said I could spend money on that but he doesn't think it's really going to smooth out idle. He believes it's in the cam. I asked about the duration specs and as to whether it should be so choppy with these specs. He said something about advertised and overlap and that may have something to do with it. Greek to me. He said easier than changing out the cam is changing the rocker arms to lower ratio, like a 1.5 and it probably would smooth it a little, but I don't want to start that kind of spending, and can't after putting 10 grand into now. So I guess it is drive it and hope to get used to it.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662795
08/30/14 03:29 PM
08/30/14 03:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333
Prospect, PA
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At some point you need to own all of the aspects to this hobby, or commit a bunch more money to it. It is a bit of a hands on hobby. Spending $10,000 on the motor is just the beginning.
You should start educating yourself on ignitions, carburetors, cam shafts and tuning and start doing things yourself if you want any hope for success. Otherwise there will always be a little something not right, a thousand opinions on what is wrong, and regular trips to the mechanic. And if your not paying him, he'll be done with you pretty quick.
People here will help you all day long, but at some point you need to flip wrenches and get dirty.
Just some advice.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: BSB67]
#1662797
08/30/14 03:38 PM
08/30/14 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 16,095
Central Florida
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Quote:
At some point you need to own all of the aspects to this hobby, or commit a bunch more money to it. It is a bit of a hands on hobby. Spending $10,000 on the motor is just the beginning.
You should start educating yourself on ignitions, carburetors, cam shafts and tuning and start doing things yourself if you want any hope for success. Otherwise there will always be a little something not right, a thousand opinions on what is wrong, and regular trips to the mechanic. And if your not paying him, he'll be done with you pretty quick.
People here will help you all day long, but at some point you need to flip wrenches and get dirty.
Just some advice.
I am most definitely paying the mechanic. I do get a little dirty. I change oil, pulled diff cover and replace gear oil and gasket, replace water pump, radiator, thermostat, brake jobs, pulled a K frame out of a car, and alot of other stuff. Problem is I work alot, have a small single car garage, and limited tools because only so much will fit in garage along with a car. I subscribe to the two big Mopar mags and try and learn what I can. I don't have a vacuum gauge. I do have a timing light. I just find I don't have enough time and want things done right. So I try and learn, but have realized the hard way that some things are better left to the expert. If I had a big garage and a little more time, I'd be in heaven. I loved Mopars all my life and never owned anything but. My opinion is you don't have to know everything, but you have to know the right people to ask. So when I am overmatched, I come here. When I am retired, assuming I will ever be able to, it will be a different story.
Facts are stubborn things.
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not your average engine swap on a M-body cop car adding those huge pipes under there. they did look like like a top notch shop when I picked the 318 up. 
