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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Imrare]
#1631498
06/12/14 12:29 PM
06/12/14 12:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,636
Nashville, TN
MOPARMIKE69
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,636
Nashville, TN
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Quote:
I have had it get in excess of 215, so hot that is sounded like a diesel right before I shut it off, so hot that as the engine is cooling, it "creeks" like a hot ember after it is shut off, so hot it melted the plastic steering column bearing at the bottom of the steering column, so hot that it shrunk up the steering column white fire wall gasket to the point it was unusable and had to be replaced. Believe me when I say...the engine overheats, that is a fact, it is verified! My question is related to Core Shift and is that why it is overheating?
First let me say I can relate to your frustration. You have done so much to find the answer to this problem with nothing to show for it.
The fastest and least expensive and most definative thing you can do right now is... get another block with the same bore. Rebuild it with all that you have already and dyno it. Block might cost $300. Engine reassembly some gaskets and time. I could do it in one day. $500 for the dyno. Done, all doubts removed as to whether it is the block or not.If it works put it in the car and finally enjoy your cool ride. You will still have your numbers matching block for the car, when and if you decide to sell it.
If it still over heats then obviously you will never doubt your numbers matching block and you will then at least have a solid base for tracing down your problem. You have been fighting this for what 2 years. You can put to rest all your doubts about this block in one week and less than a grand.
Best of luck in your efforts
69 Road Runner vert
69 GTX hard top
70 Road Runner 4 speed
70 Hemi Cuda vert
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Imrare]
#1631501
06/12/14 01:31 PM
06/12/14 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
I have had it get in excess of 215, so hot that is sounded like a diesel right before I shut it off, so hot that as the engine is cooling, it "creeks" like a hot ember after it is shut off, so hot it melted the plastic steering column bearing at the bottom of the steering column, so hot that it shrunk up the steering column white fire wall gasket to the point it was unusable and had to be replaced. Believe me when I say...the engine overheats, that is a fact, it is verified! My question is related to Core Shift and is that why it is overheating?
The steering column bearing did not melt from engine coolant temp, it melted from too high exh temp , lean idle will cause the manifolds to grow bright red as will not enough timing.
The engine shouldn't overheat from sitting at 2 light cycles unless the light cycle is over 10 mins ?
What is your history with this engine BEFORE the rebuild, was it overheating then?
The only other 383 I know of that had and overheating issue was with one that had pin hole leaks in the side of the block that wouldn't allow the cooling system to build pressure. I worked on a 440 that had the same problem , once the leak was fixed the issue went away.
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Andrewh]
#1631502
06/12/14 01:36 PM
06/12/14 01:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
as I recall you are trying to run a 22 inch rad with 3 row core, mechanical fan and no shroud.
My 69 Dart has a 22" 3 row radiator , mechanical fan but wit ha shroud. I have run it on the highway at 65mph with 3.91 gears and F70-14 tires, RPM was up over 3k, in 95 degree heat and it was fine.
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: JohnRR]
#1631503
06/12/14 02:26 PM
06/12/14 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 291
St. Louis
Imrare
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
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St. Louis
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To answer another post, you can't put a 26 inch radiator in a 22 inch core support for obvious reasons. I have recently reinstalled the OE shroud back on the radiator even though the car is not coded that way. There has been no change in MO. I've owned more than one Plymouth/Dodge in the past with 22 inch radiators (no shroud) and they ran plenty cool, never a problem. So I know the radiator is adequate. Just as a note, I've also tried two other radiators, one a Max Cool Radiator from Glen Ray Radiators in WI, no change in the overheating problem. And yes, it does cool down when I'm driving at 55 but I'm not sure it would on a really hot day after the temp reached elevated levels.
MoparMike, thank you for your understanding, I am very frustrated and have been working this problem, on and off, for the last 5 years. I've only become really serious about it in the last 2 or 3 years because I always thought there must be some simple explanation to the problem and I've "done the show car" thing and now want to actually drive the car...plaques and trophies only go so far.
I've made arrangements to try a new carb on the car in the next few weeks, just because everyone says try it, I don't expect it to make a difference, but I don't want to leave any stone unturned. Then, if that doesn't work, after the Mopar Nationals, I am going to tear down the engine and have it sonic tested and see what those results are. I don't know what else to do at this point.
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Andrewh]
#1631505
06/12/14 03:56 PM
06/12/14 03:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,480
So Cal
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Quote:
you can put a 26 in in a 22 core support. my self and plenty of other members have done so.
a change in the raditor isn't your only issue.
air flow is the main problem.
at around 45 mph no fan will pull as much air as is being pushed through by speed.
if at 50 mph your car maintains cooling, then you do not have a cooling system issue.
you have an airflow issue.
while a shroud might help, on boarder line issues, yours seems to be much worse than that.
additional cooling capacity using a 26 inch rad would bandaid the air flow problem.
just cause you don't want to hear it, doesn't make it untrue.
the wrong answer is always, we have always done it like that, and it worked before.
if you can get a giant shop fan and blow air over the rad at idle, you can prove it is an air flow issue. not an engine or coolant capacity issue.
Very good points.
But I do understand Imrare's fustration that IF his car was rebuilt 100% stock, the stock system should cool it.
Question is, is it 110% stock? The only thing I can think of as not controlable as stock would be the gas. Is that enough to cause things to go over the tipping point?
On the far out wacky side to pour gas on this fire... could there be something hidding inside a coolant passage inside the block or heads blocking flow that would be overcome at speed with airflow but be a problem idling? Just hot tanking will not get some heavy scale out. I've seen freeze plugs and bits of freeze plugs in motors from when someone knocked one in when replacing. Could that get lodged in a mysterious place?
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1631507
06/12/14 04:35 PM
06/12/14 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,636
Nashville, TN
MOPARMIKE69
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,636
Nashville, TN
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Again in a week and for less than a grand you can know for sure if it is the block. Even if you sonic test the block you still won't know if that is why it is over heating. You hopefully will find out if there is blockage in the water jackets or if you need to re-sleeve.
The car is stock and he has a ton invested to make it that way. It is a beautiful car so rigging in a 26 inch isn't an option.
If you go back and look at the threads every conceivable option to help him find out the answer to this overheating problem has been suggested. Whether or not he has explored them all only he knows. That is why he is at the point of questioning "core shift".
69 Road Runner vert
69 GTX hard top
70 Road Runner 4 speed
70 Hemi Cuda vert
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Andrewh]
#1631509
06/12/14 04:51 PM
06/12/14 04:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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So Cal
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Quote:
...
a blockage would just be worse moving faster.
think about the pinched hoses we have heard about at speed.
...
That makes sense. 
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1631510
06/12/14 05:06 PM
06/12/14 05:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,094
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
That is why he is at the point of questioning "core shift".
Anything is possible, but that is why I asked his history with the engine before the rebuild.
A friend had a 440 that was .060 over, it was a race engine but to what degree? He took it out of the car he had it in with headers and single plane high rise intake and put it in his 69 Satellite wagon , with stock exhaust manifolds and a dual plane 4bbl, it never ran cool after the transplant , before I have no idea as I didn't know him then. I'm not sure how much too big a cam and stock manifolds played against each other ??? and/or the maxish overbore and higher compression ratio? Or if it was being helped/caused by the auto transmission???
Also in all this playing around wit hthe timing , retarding it 10 degrees after TDC definitely wasn't going to help, was the mechanical advance in the distributor changed to work with the non stock setting or left stock?
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Imrare]
#1631513
06/13/14 12:33 AM
06/13/14 12:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
I would have thought that engines produced in the late 60's that were subject to a "core shift" would have been disposed of long ago by attrition or warrantee claims. I'm finding that some of these may have survived.
Has anyone experienced Core Shift in an engine block (383, 440, etc.) that did not become a problem until years later when the block received its first 30 overbore? By problem I mean overheating or cracked cylinder wall.
Your engine builder tells you it's lean, you don't have any idea where or how the tuning is withthe carb and your running ethanol gas?
Yes lean will cause it to run hot, sure he!! Will.
Is is not core shift IMO
Learn to tune your carb is my suggestion.
Post your jets needles here we c an tell where your at with carb.
Why don't you believe the engine builder? He knows your motor best.
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Re: Has anyone experienced Core Shift????
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1631514
06/23/14 12:06 PM
06/23/14 12:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 291
St. Louis
Imrare
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 291
St. Louis
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In speaking with many individuals here and others, it seems pretty unlikely that this engine has been overheating for 45 years. If it had, it would have had a warranty block by now. So probably no core shift.
It was determined when the engine was rebuilt (last winter) that both heads had been “monkeyed with”. They had both been ported on the intake side. Also, and maybe more important, two repairable cracks were found in what is now the Drivers side head. Since the heads had the expensive “porting” the rebuilder convinced me to let him repair the cracks and not replace the heads.
Since now finding that the rebuild did not uncover any issues related to overheating, and since the same problem persists exactly as before the engine was rebuilt, my assumption is that whatever is causing the overheating is still part of the engine. Therefore, with the block ruled out, I have begun to focus on the heads.
Since each side of the engine is a closed loop cooling system until meeting at the water pump and then going on into the radiator, I performed an analysis whereby starting with the cold I took temperature readings of each head at two minute intervals with the engine warming up from idle. I did this analysis on Saturday and Sunday. The outside temp on Saturday and Sunday morning was 80 and 70 degrees respectively. The humidity was 90% and 87%.
Unfortunately, I could not get my excel worksheet to copy into this post but the bottom line is in all phases of the engine "warm up", ( I took 18 readings) the driver's head ran consistently hotter than the passenger side by up to 30 - 40 degrees. Ex. when the Pass head was 150, the driver's head was 190, when pass head was 180, drivers head was 215, etc. Also I then took the car out and drove it, even with the temp gage showing normal, I got out and took the head temp, the pass side was 165, the drivers side was 201.
I believe the increased cool air flow over the radiator was able to handle the heat transfer from the “hot head” and cool the other portions of the engine to a point where it appeared to be normal operating temperature at the sending unit. Once I would stop for a minute or so at a stop light or because of traffic, you could visibly see the temperature gage rise until I started moving again, then it would move down to normal.
So does my analysis prove anything? I think it does. Has anyone ever experienced something like this, with one side of the engine running considerably hotter than the other? Also, is there agreement that this analysis points to a problem in the Driver’s side head?
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