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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: redmist] #2037607
03/24/16 12:56 AM
03/24/16 12:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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Originally Posted By redmist
Bump to the top!!!

Add me to the list of folks who can't get the box centered. This is one of the new "Smaller" boxes.

I have it installed on a QA1 K. I had to add a washer on the outboard mounting bolt to get the box to even be close to engaging the coupler from Bergman.

Now it's all in, and it has a nasty angle from the steering shaft to the box. Not a big deal...

However!

I also now have the tie rods that can't be adjusted into spec. The passenger side is bottomed out of adjustment and can't get to spec. The wheel is still toed in. The drivers side is adjusted way out, and can get to spec, but the length difference between each tie rod is almost 2"!!

To correct this issue, I would need to shim the double bolt side of the box. This would put the input as such an extreme angle that the Bergman coupler would have to have the dust shield/gasket removed to even engage the splines in the box.

I am thinking my only option is to remove the pitman, grind out the four master splines, and install the pitman one spline out of phase.

It is a dang small box though!
You need to un-couple your coupler and center your pitman and idler so they are equal distance from the frame rails, then put on the coupler with your steering wheel centered. The set screw on the coupler DOES NOT align with the flat on the input shaft EVER.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: 72Swinger] #2037841
03/24/16 02:46 PM
03/24/16 02:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
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redmist Offline
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If I did that, then the box would be 30% out of center when the steering components were square.


My options are:

1. Un-center the steering boxes travel range, and square up the components under the car.

2. Center the box, and move the pitman arm 10deg by eliminating the master splines.


Right now my current setup is that the box is perfectly centered in it's range of travel left to right (Internal stops in box) The steering wheel is perfectly centered on the perfectly centered box, with a perfectly centered coupler (Ignoring the flat, I put it where it needed to be)

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #2037858
03/24/16 03:21 PM
03/24/16 03:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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Well in your case I would call Peter, if you bought it from him, and see about returning it. Mine is on center with the Pitman/Idler where they should be.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: 72Swinger] #2038193
03/24/16 11:53 PM
03/24/16 11:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 68
Victoria B. C Canada
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gold66cuda Offline
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Victoria B. C Canada
"Mine is on center with the Pitman/Idler where they should be."


So is mine!

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: 72Swinger] #2038976
03/26/16 01:17 AM
03/26/16 01:17 AM
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Posts: 305
5th and plum
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redmist Offline
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How bad would it be to run this box off of it's center point? As it stands, in order to make everything correct under the car, the steering box is turned 90deg' to the right off of it's center point.

I am thinking that the main shaft on these boxes is cut incorrectly, as well as the mounting ears are welded wrong.

Or!

They knew all the shafts were cut incorrectly, Didn't want to eat the cost of making new ones and decided to try and fix the problem by welding the ears for the boxes out of time to move the box more in the direction of the offset (wrong) cut center shaft.

The byproduct of this is that now we have the terrible angle from steering column to coupler.

As I think about it, if I were to remove the shim in my box, it would make the coupler impossible to get on the shaft, however doing so would fix all the centering issues.

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2040274
03/28/16 05:20 AM
03/28/16 05:20 AM
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Northern Calyfornua
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Sxrxrnr Offline
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Northern Calyfornua
Originally Posted By Sxrxrnr
Take a look at my posted photos that was taken from underneath the steering box. You can see the shim that I made out of 1 inch wide by 1/8th inch steel stock.

In the photo you can see the shiny steel shim between the black paint of the K member and the steering box.

The post photo is several postings above this one,,,also read the associated text. You can also use Williams washers as Hotchkis had recommended.

If you do not shim you will have toe alignment issues, box will not be on top crnter and shaft will be at an angle into coupler,,,which is the least concern. The angle just illustrates that you likely have a problem.

I post the photo again.



It's been some 16 months since I finally gotten everything squared away with the Borgeson in my E Body. All is well and am pleased with the way the car drives. The shim was the ticket to success, but still pi$$ed at the crapola that I had to go thru feuding with the responsible vendors as they told me that my issues were likely because I was a dumb [censored] and my alignment guy didn't have a clue either,,,,when we were insble to get the car to proper toe whilst having the steering box indexed to top center.

The shim took care of all issues. However have never been 100 % easy with having that shim in there, wondering about possible unnatural stress on the box.

A few months ago did install a Borgeson in wife's 55 T Bird. A real pita, but none of which was Borgeson's fault this time,,,they don't make a kit for these cars. Was fantastic to rid the T Bird of the mess of slave cylinders, ram pistons and multiple leaky hoses inherent to the stock Ford PS setup and to take 3 inches of play out of steering wheel. Makes an honest driver out of this 60 year old Bird.

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2040825
03/28/16 10:34 PM
03/28/16 10:34 PM
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Posts: 305
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redmist Offline
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I removed my shim, and now the angle on the column is so extreme that it's hard to turn with the wheels in the air. I am told this is normal! Also with the box simply mounted in as instructed, neither of the ears are flat on the K-Frame. The twin bolt mount is angled when tightened down so I can see light on one side of the ear....

No worries! crank her down! hope the ear doesn't break off.

Taking the shim out brought my alignment closer to center. I can now square up the front, and the tie rods are equal length now. The box is now only about 45 degrees one way off of center.

If I could let the column soak up an additional 20 degrees of angle, I think we would all be good! I would have to grind a channel in the side of the coupling to allow that though.

I will save that mod for another day. shruggy

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #2041016
03/29/16 08:59 AM
03/29/16 08:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline
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Anyone have any new pics to show?
I would love to see some fresh (viewable) pics in this topic again.

If the alignment is really that far off, given the cost of these boxes, why not just send it back for a new box or ask for a refund?


By reading the alignment-issues most seem to have with their Borgboxes, I'm wondering if I was just lucky enough that my Borgeson box didnt' need any shimming at all.
Although mine did leak a drop every 10 seconds with running engine caused by a pinhole in a weld.

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue [Re: jbc426] #2041177
03/29/16 01:16 PM
03/29/16 01:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Sxrxrnr Offline
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Northern Calyfornua
Originally Posted By jbc426
Quote:
I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.


Roger(Sxrxrnr) is one of the most tenacious men I have had the pleasure of meeting, He won't quite until it is right!

After that, maybe I can even get him to give my old Mopars a run or two. I'll let him pick which car he wants to compete against, but a few runs against both of them would even be more fun.


As if on cue, both John with his Black Beauty and I with my Hemi Orange Challenger ended up on the same extra long freeway on-ramp one Saturday afternoon after leaving an annual open house event at one of Silicon Valley's most noted high performance restomod building shops, Cambell Auto Restoration Services(CARS). No firm conclusions were to be drawn that day ,,,however it was certainly the most invigorating Sweaty Palm event that I have experienced in the last 40 years.

Thank you John for a memory that will remain with me for the rest of my life.

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