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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1613740
09/22/14 09:49 AM
09/22/14 09:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
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Quote:
I have had numerous discussions and email exchanges with Peter Bergman,,he blows me off telling me that alignment guy(25 years experience in a very respected high line racing suspension shop) does not know what he is doing. I have asked Peter to speak with him. He refuses to do so. I did purchase box, coupler and adapter from Peter.
not going to stay in business very long treating customers like that. sounds like the same attitude problem he used to post here with while working for XV. ya see how long those clowns stayed in business.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: cogen80]
#1613741
09/22/14 10:22 AM
09/22/14 10:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Wow sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds like the only option is to send it back..... or scrap it and go back to the FF box.
Thanks to all for posting your experiences, it saves others major headaches. I was all set to buy one as the quicker ratio with the fast ratio arms was appealing to me. I'll stick with what I have for now. I wonder is there is enough material on the mounting plate to machine it for a better fit?
Last edited by brads70; 09/22/14 10:23 AM.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: brads70]
#1613743
09/22/14 03:19 PM
09/22/14 03:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 279
pgh pa
captaindodge
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 279
pgh pa
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Quote:
Dimensions are on page 1 of this post? I'm surprised Peter Bergman has not chimed in yet? He seems to have the most experience with these boxes?
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=3&vc=1 
As to the pitman arm issue.... what about machining/grinding a generous say 45 deg angle around the top side of the splines on the pitman arm. Thinking is this might allow the arm to install further up the shaft without weakening the pitman arm allowing the use of the locknut.
The most important dimension is missing! How far is it from the box mounting holes to the input shaft center line??? 
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: sublimehemi]
#1613747
09/23/14 10:32 AM
09/23/14 10:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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As usual on Moparts this has turned into s***fest.
The same members bash without knowing any of the facts of the situation. I do not manufacture this box, but since I sell it I must service the customer when there are issues.
Countless hours were spent with Roger (sxr) regarding his installation via cell phone, weekends etc. The end conclusion from 3,000 miles away was the option to take the box back to Borgeson. The box has a 3 year warranty so no issues there. However, since the installer NEVER called during the installation process to make a time consuming return process easier, the troubleshooting begins after the install is finished.
The second member here with a complaint called for suggestions. My suggestion was to use a torque wrench to tighten the bolts to the factory spec (125 ft/lbs I believe) and let me know the results. I have seen stock boxes get loose many times because of this step being omitted. I never heard back.
It is apparent the haters on this board have not changed in the 10+ years of my membership here. Clearly, vendors stay away because of this. I am always easy to reach and offer as many solutions to problems as possible. If any of the haters want to call and ask questions, be my guest.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#1613748
09/23/14 05:31 PM
09/23/14 05:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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The Facts The last quarter of 2013 I had transported the Challenger to a shop(E Bodies Only) in Madera, Ca., some 150 miles from my home to have the engine removed in order to install a roller cam and Edelbrock heads. Car has TTI headers and I felt easier to pull engine, additionally to do a full tear down inspection to do an spark plug oil fouling analyses. While engine was out, felt was a good time to upgrade to a Borgeson steering box,,,I already owned one for our 71 Corvette, but had not yet installed. Ordered steering box, coupler and hose adapter from Bergman after reading Mopar Action article. Ed, owner of E Bodies installed on K member and engine re-installed. He told me that I should have front end alignment done. He had no reason to call Bergman. When I returned Challenger to my home near San Jose I took it to Borreli Motor Sports whom I feel are as good as it gets in suspension services. http://borellimotorsports.com/newsite/Dave, chief technician attempted to align front end and immediately noticed a potential problem that with wheels dead ahead that pitman arm was not pointed correctly. At least 3 times he pulled pitman arm, turned steering wheel lock to lock, divided by 2 as noted in my earlier post,,,and insisted something was not right,,,could not toe car without running out of threads on tie rod, additionally taking steering box off top center too in order to get correct toe I then called Borgeson. He spoke to a tech to no benefit except be told that he was doing something incorrect. He did set toe, drove car 3 different times, telling me that box was off top center and 1 tie rod was 1/2 inch or so longer than other and the consequences of each. I told him that I will discuss with Bergman and Borgeson, paid a 300 invoice and left. Over seceding days I had several telephone conversations and email exchanges(I have copies of all) if anyone cares) with Peter and Borgeson. I requested in several of these exchanges that they have a 3 way 5 minute conference call with Dave of Borrelli,,,Dave was in agreement,,,,Bergman and Borgeson refused,,,assuming I would guess that he was unqualified and any issues was his error. Peter suggests that I now remove box and send to Borgeson for analyses,,,of course car is down for several weeks. Even this offer was never made earlier on as it was his and Borgesons opinion that this was all user error. Reminds me of what was somewhat common knowledge in my many year career in the large scale IBM mainframe world. "It is not a recognized IBM bug until every user has reported it twice". Some months back I had several more conversations with Borgeson. They by now had come to the conclusion that what I was experiencing was possibly their problem. I asked that they send me a replacement box,,,as noted earlier I volunteered to provide a CC deposit. Instead they told me to buy a new box and send in the faulty one and if returned box was faulty, they would return cash expended on the replacement. Naturally if they 'determine' not their box at fault, I am out another 800 dollars in addition to all other money's I have expended,,,plus the months of aggravation this experience has cost. There is likely not a member of this forum that had not gone thru the exact same experiences with poorly, manufactured by the lowest bidder stuff that is marketed and sold as of the finest quality. And of course each and every time it occurs it is often the end user or the shop that installed it that absorbs the often very large cash outlays that must be expended to resolve. Additionally often be the target of barbs that we are a bunch of malcontents. I would also suggest that those vendors who may complain of their unruly customers who are at times unhappy with faulty products or services,,,they too are often on the receiving ends themselves,,,,think Comcast, Directv, the DMV or post office. We all only want the products and services we paid our hard earned moneys for. Many successful companies have figured this all out,,,not only they but their customers have greatly benefited.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1613749
09/23/14 06:14 PM
09/23/14 06:14 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Is it possible the center link is flipped? I'm not defending the Borgeson, just can't see how the box could be that far off unless the shaft was flat out indexed wrong during assembly. IIRC the shaft is cut with 4 master splines as well. Another thing I don't get is if your sure the box is defective, why the fear of sending it back?
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1613750
09/23/14 06:23 PM
09/23/14 06:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
The Facts
The last quarter of 2013 I had transported the Challenger to a shop(E Bodies Only) in Madera, Ca., some 150 miles from my home to have the engine removed in order to install a roller cam and Edelbrock heads. Car has TTI headers and I felt easier to pull engine, additionally to do a full tear down inspection to do an spark plug oil fouling analyses.
While engine was out, felt was a good time to upgrade to a Borgeson steering box,,,I already owned one for our 71 Corvette, but had not yet installed.
Ordered steering box, coupler and hose adapter from Bergman after reading Mopar Action article. Ed, owner of E Bodies installed on K member and engine re-installed. He told me that I should have front end alignment done. He had no reason to call Bergman.
When I returned Challenger to my home near San Jose I took it to Borreli Motor Sports whom I feel are as good as it gets in suspension services.
http://borellimotorsports.com/newsite/
Dave, chief technician attempted to align front end and immediately noticed a potential problem that with wheels dead ahead that pitman arm was not pointed correctly.
At least 3 times he pulled pitman arm, turned steering wheel lock to lock, divided by 2 as noted in my earlier post,,,and insisted something was not right,,,could not toe car without running out of threads on tie rod, additionally taking steering box off top center too in order to get correct toe
I then called Borgeson. He spoke to a tech to no benefit except be told that he was doing something incorrect. He did set toe, drove car 3 different times, telling me that box was off top center and 1 tie rod was 1/2 inch or so longer than other and the consequences of each. I told him that I will discuss with Bergman and Borgeson, paid a 300 invoice and left.
Over seceding days I had several telephone conversations and email exchanges(I have copies of all) if anyone cares) with Peter and Borgeson. I requested in several of these exchanges that they have a 3 way 5 minute conference call with Dave of Borrelli,,,Dave was in agreement,,,,Bergman and Borgeson refused,,,assuming I would guess that he was unqualified and any issues was his error.
Peter suggests that I now remove box and send to Borgeson for analyses,,,of course car is down for several weeks. Even this offer was never made earlier on as it was his and Borgesons opinion that this was all user error.
Reminds me of what was somewhat common knowledge in my many year career in the large scale IBM mainframe world. "It is not a recognized IBM bug until every user has reported it twice".
Some months back I had several more conversations with Borgeson. They by now had come to the conclusion that what I was experiencing was possibly their problem. I asked that they send me a replacement box,,,as noted earlier I volunteered to provide a CC deposit. Instead they told me to buy a new box and send in the faulty one and if returned box was faulty, they would return cash expended on the replacement.
Naturally if they 'determine' not their box at fault, I am out another 800 dollars in addition to all other money's I have expended,,,plus the months of aggravation this experience has cost.
There is likely not a member of this forum that had not gone thru the exact same experiences with poorly, manufactured by the lowest bidder stuff that is marketed and sold as of the finest quality. And of course each and every time it occurs it is often the end user or the shop that installed it that absorbs the often very large cash outlays that must be expended to resolve.
Additionally often be the target of barbs that we are a bunch of malcontents.
I would also suggest that those vendors who may complain of their unruly customers who are at times unhappy with faulty products or services,,,they too are often on the receiving ends themselves,,,,think Comcast, Directv, the DMV or post office. We all only want the products and services we paid our hard earned moneys for.
Many successful companies have figured this all out,,,not only they but their customers have greatly benefited.
Seems like a very competent shop you had do the alignment.
They (Borgenson) can't fix your box unless they have it.
Sounds like you wanted/implied-for a new box sent out to swap your old one, then send you old one back so you had no down time??
Last edited by autoxcuda; 09/23/14 07:20 PM.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1613751
09/23/14 06:33 PM
09/23/14 06:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Is it possible the center link is flipped? I'm not defending the Borgeson, just can't see how the box could be that far off unless the shaft was flat out indexed wrong during assembly. IIRC the shaft is cut with 4 master splines as well. Another thing I don't get is if your sure the box is defective, why the fear of sending it back?
Bummer they didn't cut the output shaft without the master splines. Then you could move it to where you want.
But then you will have install problems with people putting the pitman in the wrong spot. Catch 22.
A little off topic...Bummer with Chrysler output shafts is they don't have a defined ridge for the pitman to clamp against. Instead they just rely on the taper of the splines for the pitman to wedge against. That's a tougher replicate and doesn't allow for much precision. But it's cheaper to make originally.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1613752
09/23/14 10:19 PM
09/23/14 10:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Quote:
Is it possible the center link is flipped? I'm not defending the Borgeson, just can't see how the box could be that far off unless the shaft was flat out indexed wrong during assembly. IIRC the shaft is cut with 4 master splines as well. Another thing I don't get is if your sure the box is defective, why the fear of sending it back?
Center link is not flipped. As noted earlier, replaced FF box aligned well with no issues.
I do not wish to remove and send back and leave car torn down in the garage for several weeks awaiting a replacement.
Do not wish to have faulty box(if truly so) repaired. Any repair would likely require a re-welding. Some folks have even expressed alarm of any welding on a steering box, as it done to adapt these boxes to differing autos.
I do not wish to put out the cash for another box and own two of them. I have already put out at least 1,300 dollars(including labor). Do not want to have 2,000 dollars into a replacement for FF box that I had budgeted for 1,000 dollars.
I believe that if the supplier is at error(which is still an open question,,,this is the purpose of my posting,,,to determine if any other cause could be the problem,,,the reason that I had asked that Borgeson, Bergman, and my technician engage in a conference call), that the the supplier accommodate my request to forward a replacement box with me providing a CC number as a deposit to ensure return of likely at this time defective box.
In the American way, seems a good compromise if supplier screw up, not user error.
So far I have heard nothing that can argue with the photos that I have submitted to suggest other than a box out of spec,,,but as noted earlier on in suspensions, my expertise is limited.
The truth be known however as I do not completely trust the car's steering, I will likely be forced to buy another box and hope for the best on a fair analyses by Borgeson on the one I return and a proper refund.
It will be interesting to 'jig' both boxes up side by side to see how they compare.
As an aside, I do see references in other postings of 'shimming' of boxes. Does this mean what I think that it does,,,shimming the box to accommodate out of kilter boxes, or is for out of kilter 'K' members?
It has been suggested that pitman shaft mis-machined. This was my initial thought,,,see my first post on this thread. However when pulling steering shaft to replace ignition switch, I had paid particular note to the angle the shaft makes going into the coupler, hence the photos and new theory.
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 09/23/14 10:37 PM.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1613753
09/24/14 12:33 AM
09/24/14 12:33 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
As an aside, I do see references in other postings of 'shimming' of boxes. Does this mean what I think that it does,,,shimming the box to accommodate out of kilter boxes, or is for out of kilter 'K' members?
It is a production error with the boxes, not the K frames. Earlier in this thread you'll note we throw a stock box back in and everything lines up. We ended up shimming ours with a couple Williams washers.
Also of note, I believe Firm Feel can make an "unkeyed" pitman, or you can meticulously grind the larger key ways out of a standard pitman to make it infinitely adjustable.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1613755
09/25/14 03:58 AM
09/25/14 03:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
As an aside, I do see references in other postings of 'shimming' of boxes. Does this mean what I think that it does,,,shimming the box to accommodate out of kilter boxes, or is for out of kilter 'K' members?
It is a production error with the boxes, not the K frames. Earlier in this thread you'll note we throw a stock box back in and everything lines up. We ended up shimming ours with a couple Williams washers.
Also of note, I believe Firm Feel can make an "unkeyed" pitman, or you can meticulously grind the larger key ways out of a standard pitman to make it infinitely adjustable.
A very smart dude saw this thread and noted to me that there are 36 splines on the output shaft. So each spline move the arm a whole 10 degrees. Well if the pitman is about 8", each spline move the end of the pitman and tie rods about 1.4". That's quite a bit of movement. Not exactly "fine" tuning.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 10/04/14 05:00 AM.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1613757
10/04/14 04:02 AM
10/04/14 04:02 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,278
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,278
West Coast, USA
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Quote:
I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.
Roger(Sxrxrnr) is one of the most tenacious men I have had the pleasure of meeting, He won't quite until it is right!
After that, maybe I can even get him to give my old Mopars a run or two. I'll let him pick which car he wants to compete against, but a few runs against both of them would even be more fun.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1613758
12/04/14 02:58 PM
12/04/14 02:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
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Quote:
I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.
any updates on this?
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