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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1613719
05/23/14 11:54 AM
05/23/14 11:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Quote:
Quote:
..one thing for sure is i hate mopar power boxes even if they we sent to firm feel...the on center feeling sucks....
That feeling you have is the mesh on the gears being worn in. Firm feel can make it feel like the Borgesons, but just like the Borgeson units, it will "wear in" after some use and there will be no difference. They are both worm and sector boxes, both are 1960's/1970's technology. Unless you get a fresh set of gears cut, once the center wears in, you'll always have that. The only benefit of the Borgeson unit I see as of now is if you are really desperate to lose 15lbs off the nose.
I can get the output shaft measurements, however it would be 2 different cars. The car with the Borgeson box is too far assembled for disassembly. But we have a same year A-body at the shop in the same configuration and a Firm Feel box. Once I get this car off the rack, I'll measure the other car too. Probably about this time next week, as I've got a couple cars in between the two on the schedule.
I'll put it on my board.
Dan just so we're clear, I'm wondering about the offset of the shaft centerlines of the boxes. That would be taking K members and different body families out of the equation and compare just the boxes. In your pics it looks like the stock box is offset noticeably more. If you have a loose stock box I have my Borgeson off and I can measure its offset.
opprox 2.5" is what I get
Last edited by 72Swinger; 05/23/14 12:00 PM.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1613721
05/23/14 01:31 PM
05/23/14 01:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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That answers that. Must just be playing with my eyes in your pics. If their tolerances for the mounting ears are that far off, it really makes me Leary of the shaft extension and the rest of the entire damn box too.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: PHJ426]
#1613723
05/23/14 07:52 PM
05/23/14 07:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Dimensions are on page 1 of this post? I'm surprised Peter Bergman has not chimed in yet? He seems to have the most experience with these boxes? https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=3&vc=1  As to the pitman arm issue.... what about machining/grinding a generous say 45 deg angle around the top side of the splines on the pitman arm. Thinking is this might allow the arm to install further up the shaft without weakening the pitman arm allowing the use of the locknut.
Last edited by brads70; 05/24/14 06:37 AM.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014)
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1613725
05/25/14 07:16 AM
05/25/14 07:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 737
Nampa, ID
MadMatt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 737
Nampa, ID
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I have no experience with the Borgenson box in these applications but just thought I'd throw in my  . I've got a 74 K-frame in my '70 Dart with a FF box and was pretty happy with it. Then I added the FF Sector Support Kit and now I think it steers just great! I also own a 2007 Jeep Commander with the Borgenson box that these are supposedly based on, and I really don't think there is a significant difference in steering feel. By the way, I have TTI headers and there is no interference whatsoever, and they were easiest set of headers I've ever installed on any car.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014)
[Re: V8val]
#1613727
05/25/14 06:26 PM
05/25/14 06:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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My BorgBox has no angle to the steeringshaft. But then again, it had a pinhole leak in a corner at the welded mounting bracket. Borgeson did offer a replacement box for warranty but I decided to fix it myself because I didn't want any downtime on the car since it's my daily.) So perhaps they have some quality control issues at hand or their welding guy needs a fresh dose of 'motivation'. That being said, I'm still very happy with the feel and workings of the box. 
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014)
[Re: komninon]
#1613729
09/18/14 12:37 AM
09/18/14 12:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
have had the borgeson box on my 68 charger for 3 months. i am not very happy.....we had to use shims to make it fit. i did not see a huge difference compared to the ff box that i had. my biggest problem is that the gear box mount is getting lose all the time making driving dangerous.
for that kind of money it was supposed to be 100% bolt on at least.
sounds like there is more to this issue than just the box. What suspension setup are you running?
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014)
[Re: komninon]
#1613731
09/19/14 01:58 AM
09/19/14 01:58 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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like firm feel a arms, torsion bars, strut rods, fast ratio arms? ect ect? how new are the ball joints, tie rod ends?
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: brads70]
#1613735
09/21/14 11:05 AM
09/21/14 11:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
cogen80
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
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Quote:
Dimensions are on page 1 of this post? I'm surprised Peter Bergman has not chimed in yet? He seems to have the most experience with these boxes?
this all he will say.
from another site he posts on
Quote:
150 Boxes sold with very few issues. I've had all the boxes out there and the Borgeson although not cheap has light years better feel than any factory box.
he never shares much info except that its "light years" ahead of stock ones. not much of a salesman thats for sure. if you remember when he was with XV he would get all wound up and throw insults out instead of trying to explain if/how certain parts were better. needs to work on his customer service skills.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: cogen80]
#1613736
09/21/14 05:12 PM
09/21/14 05:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Nebraska
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They're obviously having jigging issues, mine has no issues luckily. TTI finally addressed their jigging issues with this box and their headers. Has anyone contacted Borgeson and let them know they have a problem? That is the first thing I would do in this situation.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1613737
09/21/14 05:17 PM
09/21/14 05:17 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
They're obviously having jigging issues, mine has no issues luckily. TTI finally addressed their jigging issues with this box and their headers. Has anyone contacted Borgeson and let them know they have a problem? That is the first thing I would do in this situation.
I've emailed with them and spoken to their folks on the phone. They believe inconsistencies should be resolved by the coupler and shimming.
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Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1613738
09/22/14 03:44 AM
09/22/14 03:44 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Quote:
Quote:
They're obviously having jigging issues, mine has no issues luckily. TTI finally addressed their jigging issues with this box and their headers. Has anyone contacted Borgeson and let them know they have a problem? That is the first thing I would do in this situation.
I've emailed with them and spoken to their folks on the phone. They believe inconsistencies should be resolved by the coupler and shimming.
I have fought serious issues since replacing FF 3 on our 70 6 pack Challenger.
Very well respected alignment guy tried to set toe. 3 times removed pitman, spun steering wheel 4 turns lock to lock, divided by 2 to achieve top center and could not get pitman to line up with drag link. Tech noted that pitman was not pointed dead ahead as should normally be.
Finally he took left tie rod out as far as threads would allow in order to set toe. Made this tie rod 1/2 half inch longer than opposite one. Even then had to rotate shaft flat spot on steering box shaft output that should be pointed at chassis where Bergman coupler attaches from proper 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock to get pitman attached to draglink.
I have had numerous discussions and email exchanges with Peter Bergman,,he blows me off telling me that alignment guy(25 years experience in a very respected high line racing suspension shop) does not know what he is doing. I have asked Peter to speak with him. He refuses to do so. I did purchase box, coupler and adapter from Peter.
I then spoke likely some 5 times with different personnel at a Borgeson,,,,they tell me to pull the box, send to them and they will examine,,,of course car is then down for several weeks. They too have refused to speak with Dave, my local tech guy.
Finally after speaking with a senior party at borgeson and telling him what I have read on a Chevy forum where they have postings on identical conditions because of fault machining of pitman shaft spline(a couple of these complainers said that the had machined off keying splines to reposition the pitman),,,this senior party(I believe a VP) has now offer to "allow" me to purchase a new box, install it and return the faulty one for analyses. If faulty they will refund my money that I paid for the replacement unit.
I had requested that I be sent a replacement box, that I would provide a CC number for security that I would return old box This was refused,,,I am aware that purchasing a new one and getting a refund when old one is returned sounds the same,,,but somehow does not feel the same,,,if not to give the appearance of good customer relations if nothing else. Interesting observation: Twice now,,,the latest instance a collapsed Scorpion hydraulic roller lifter,,,I called Summit, they sent me a pair of replacement lifter(rollers come in pairs) and followed up with a Fed X mailing label to send back to them the failed lifter once I had pulled it,,,that is customer service that has built them one hell of a business model and a loyal customer following.
Of course I am out the 300 bucks that I have paid my tech(normal alignment charge is 120 dollars the rest for 2 hours of troubleshooting labor), whatever labor to replace the box, plus likely shipping both ways plus a whole lot of frustration and stress. And if new box has same issue, then it is not the box, but something else. But what could it be, they have no idea they say. All suspension components are from a firm called Just Suspensions. They insist their pitman is correct,,,and of course my FF box had zero toe alignment issues when used with their components.
So now here comes the kicker. I had to replace an ignition switch and TS switch on the Challenger last week which meant disconnecting Bergman coupler from the steering box.
When I went to reconnect it I noted that the steering shaft went straight forward as it likely should. However the coupler when attached to the shaft has to make a significant right, let's say less than 25 degree right turn toward the engine In order to mate up with the steering box itself,,,in other words not straight in as it should,,,I recently a large Mopar event had a chance to take a look at a number of cars,,,in all cases the shaft goes completely straight into the box via the coupler. I have taken photos of this alignment issue that clearly shows what is described on our car.
I now suspect the welding job on the updated to fit an E Body Borgeson is tweaked enough to have the box not properly mounted, thereby causing my problems.
My observation along with this informative thread heightens my suspicion and frustration that this box is tweaked for some reason
The car that this box is mounted in is an extremely low mileage car and has never been wrecked or suffered any front suspension problems. The Firm Feel box had no such issues and toe was perfect with tie rods of equal length(unequal lengths can lead to a wealth of handling issues including bump steer and differing turn radias depending on if turning left or if turning right. and box of course is not properly oriented at at top center.
Whereas the Borgeson is off from about 9 pm to about 11 pm from top center,,,the flat spot on shaft spline is about 11:30,,,the set screw that Bergman offers is properly at 9 pm in order to have steering wheel straight and of course not at flat spot on spline where it should be,,,yes I have read Borgeson note on this phenomenon. Not sure if this is reasonable to expect.
I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions on how I should proceed. I would hate to pull this box, send to Borgeson, be told that there is no defect in it or to find that a replacement box too has same issues and be told that is the car or tech and not them.
Would have been helpful for either Bergman or Borgeson speak with my suspension tech, but is not to be. I do almost all my own mechanical work and am quite good at it. However suspensions are quite the mystery to me so must rely on those who are experts in this area.
By the way, I do own another Borgeson that I had planned to install in my 71 Corvette. That plan is on hold for now until I resolve this current problem
Chevy forum link. Borgeson has told me that my problem is different than is this. I now tend to agree with them,,,the Chevy issues sounds like poorly machined pitman shafts, I suspect that my issue because of noted angle of shaft to box is the result of improper 'jig" set up when box was welded,,,,or however they establish proper geometry.
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/311422/
I have spent time seeking a pitman arm that has no keyed splines. Have had several leads that did not pan out. A friend suggested to cold bend my pitman arm, I had considered machining out my arm. My suspension tech is strongly against both ideas.
His suggestion is if Borgeson will not take care of, that I re-install the FF box. Unfortunately I have given it to a friend who is building an outstanding hemi Challenger clone as we speak. Besides that I chose to go with the Borgeson for what I feel were sound reasons and would like to sort this out.
Again seeking opinions on moving forward.
I did some editing of my original posting.
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 09/22/14 10:08 PM.
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