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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Supercuda]
#1586359
03/02/14 02:31 AM
03/02/14 02:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,928
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,928
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Has nobody here used the Permatex High Tack Sealant? They mentioned it by name in the Haynes Manual I have. That and just a dab of RTV in the four corners where the rear seal retainer and timing chain cover meet up with the block.
Really?
On a big block?
Time for a new manual since the timing chain cover and oil pan have no common surfaces on a big block.
Ummm.....yes they do. The bottom of the timing cover mates to the front edge of the oil pan.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1586360
03/02/14 02:52 AM
03/02/14 02:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,358
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,358
Someplace you aren't
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The Right Stuff will end the issue. It will also create a new one.
BB oil pan meets timing chain cover.
I want my fair share
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1586361
03/02/14 02:59 AM
03/02/14 02:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
The Right Stuff will end the issue. It will also create a new one.
Which is precisely why my suggestion was ONLY if he didn't plan on removing it anytime soon 
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1586363
03/02/14 08:11 AM
03/02/14 08:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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what the heck was I thinking.
Dunno
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1586364
03/02/14 09:33 AM
03/02/14 09:33 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
I quit using gasket maker RTV years ago, right after Permatex came out with thier adhesive sealant 
When I search 'adhesive sealant' I get the Permatex black RTV. On the Permatex website, they state that this is not recommended for gasket dressing.
Are you referring to this?
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: cjskotni]
#1586365
03/02/14 09:51 AM
03/02/14 09:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
mopar4ya
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
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Did this leak start after a fresh rebuild of the engine? The reason I ask is I have seen several B/RB engines where the timing cover does not lay flat up against the front of the block. After the timing cover has been bolted on and torqued to spec, you could still run a thin feelers gauge in between the cover and block. This was in the area about 3-4 inches up from where the timing cover meets the oil pan on both sides. The oil seeps out and runs down to the front corners of the pan then follows the rails back. Just something I thought you might want to check before dropping the pan again. Good luck. Dan 
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: mopar4ya]
#1586366
03/02/14 10:09 AM
03/02/14 10:09 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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So the pan was not leaking THIS time as I paid a mechanic to do it last time as I didn't want to mess with it. I had to pull the pan as my careless body buy dented the pan on his lift. Last few times I did the pan myself, I could never seem to get it to seal up good. I always used the standard paper gaskets and black RTV. This time I'm hoping better gaskets, high tack sealant, and blue locktight on the bolts will help. One last question, Haynes manual says 200 in-lbs on the bolts. Is this what you guys would use? Oh and I have ARP bolts FWIW. Also I have a bunch of this: http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/ARP-1009904/Arp-Teflon-Thread-SealerWill that be a good idea to use on the bolts instead of locktight? Thanks!!
Last edited by cjskotni; 03/02/14 10:29 AM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: cjskotni]
#1586368
03/02/14 11:25 AM
03/02/14 11:25 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,547
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,547
Syracuse,NY
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Ok, your making this a LOT harder than it needs to be. You recieved some very good advice early on from Greg in this post.I have built quite a few engines over almost 30 years, and I can tell you I never needed Right Stuff, or any other miracle sealers to get the job done. Here is my opinion and comments: 1) Stop looking for the miracle RTV 2) Make SURE...SURE..SURE...all gasket surfaces are oil and silicone free, and as clean as you can get them, Use lacquer thinner to clean the surfaces. 3) Using High tack on each gasket, JUST to adhere it to the windage tray is fine. High Tack does SOME sealing, but it really is only there to make the installation easier, IE: make the gaskets hold in place till you can install them. 4) The Milodon crush proof gaskets, are not all they are cracked up to be. As Greg already mentioned, their material isnt optimum in this application, The wicking and loosening WILL happen. Using locktite on the bolts really doesnt help a thing with that. With a good gasket and proper installation, I have never seeen a rash of oil pan bolts falling out. 5) RTV. usually creates as many issues as it solves. Most people WAY over use it, and things get even worse. It has its place here and there, but most applications just dont need it. Its a " feel good" product many times. Keep in mind, a gasket is there to do what? Yep, thats right, seal things up. Then why do we need all of this silicone? Let the gasket do its job, which is to seal the surfaces.Flat surfaces are the key to sealing anything up. If the surfaces are dirty, uneven, have debris on them, dont mate up right, then you need to fix that first. 6) You dont want to wait to get good gaskets, but also dont want to ever touch this pan again? I'd suggest maybe re-thinking that. 7) Make sure the area by the rear main seal reatiner is good anf flat. Sometimes the retainer can be a little pronounced there, and cause an issue. Also, if this engine has ever had main studs installed, quite often the interfere witht he rear portion of the oil pan, and it will never seal. The front timing cover is also an area of suspect. The timing cover may not be as flush to the block as the pan is. In that case, you MAY need a touch of sealer there, but just a dab is all, put too much on and you create another problem. 8) The windage tray needs to be perfectly clean and flat. If its not, that will be a problem. The High Tack does work good for that area. 9) If you and others, have been torquing the hell out of this oil pan to try and stop leaks for a long time, then you have probably stretched the oil bolt holes and they are no longer flush. Use a large brass drif, witht he oil pan on a flat surface and get all the holes flat again, and DO NOT overtighten the pan. My guess is, a few of the recent installs simply werent done correctly. As I said, I have done a lot of BBM's, and we actually have a very easy oil pan to seal up. IF you pay attention to all these things. If you are having another problem like crankcase ventilation etc, then nothing will work , short of gluing and welding it...so that would need to be addressed seperatly. Take your time, dont be in a hurry, do it right the first time, and dont go buying stock in Permatex anytime soon, you simply dont need all this RTV if everything elses is right. Let the gasket do its job, which is to seal things, and I would suggest using a different gasket as well. Good luck
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1586369
03/02/14 12:21 PM
03/02/14 12:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,303
Penna
70satelliteguy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,303
Penna
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Last post by Comp  BB oil pans are just not that hard to seal up  I just use the gasket NOW if you don't have a problem with the rear main consider yourself VERY LUCKY!!!
Last edited by 70satelliteguy; 03/02/14 12:23 PM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: 70satelliteguy]
#1586370
03/02/14 02:33 PM
03/02/14 02:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Ok I got her done! Pan is bolted back on. I cleaned everything super well. I scraped off all the leftover gasket/RTV, went over it with 000 steel wool, and wiped it down with lacquer thinner. All surfaces were clean and oil free! Next I chased all the bolt holes with a tap and used a tiny drill bit (in reverse low speed) to knock out the RTV from the holes. I sprayed all the holes with brake cleaner and blew all the gunk out of em! I used the high tack sealant on the two gaskets and put them on the windage tray first. I high tacked the top of the gasket and used a dab of copper RTV on the rear seal retainer and where the timing cover meats the block. Stuck windage tray up there and added the pan with some high tack on the flanges. I carefully crisscrossed all the pan bolts hand tight first. Then I went back and snuck up with the torque wrench. I torqued everything down to 180 in-lbs (15 ft-lbs) which I saw on several websites. 200 in-lbs seemed a little much and I don't want to deform this pan. I used lock tight on all the bolts. Yes I did have the infamous rear seal issues but I went to the 440source billet retainer with the Viton seals. Bone dry now for over a year. I guess I am one of the lucky ones now in that regard. I appreciate all the input guys! I did use the Milodan gaskets as the ones that were there a year had not leaked yet. I will let you know what happens when I get this back on the road. I still have to get me new Firm Feel gear in which comes in next week!
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1586371
03/02/14 04:32 PM
03/02/14 04:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Ok, your making this a LOT harder than it needs to be. You recieved some very good advice early on from Greg in this post.I have built quite a few engines over almost 30 years, and I can tell you I never needed Right Stuff, or any other miracle sealers to get the job done. Here is my opinion and comments:
1) Stop looking for the miracle RTV
2) Make SURE...SURE..SURE...all gasket surfaces are oil and silicone free, and as clean as you can get them, Use lacquer thinner to clean the surfaces.
3) Using High tack on each gasket, JUST to adhere it to the windage tray is fine. High Tack does SOME sealing, but it really is only there to make the installation easier, IE: make the gaskets hold in place till you can install them.
4) The Milodon crush proof gaskets, are not all they are cracked up to be. As Greg already mentioned, their material isnt optimum in this application, The wicking and loosening WILL happen. Using locktite on the bolts really doesnt help a thing with that. With a good gasket and proper installation, I have never seeen a rash of oil pan bolts falling out.
5) RTV. usually creates as many issues as it solves. Most people WAY over use it, and things get even worse. It has its place here and there, but most applications just dont need it. Its a " feel good" product many times. Keep in mind, a gasket is there to do what? Yep, thats right, seal things up. Then why do we need all of this silicone? Let the gasket do its job, which is to seal the surfaces.Flat surfaces are the key to sealing anything up. If the surfaces are dirty, uneven, have debris on them, dont mate up right, then you need to fix that first.
6) You dont want to wait to get good gaskets, but also dont want to ever touch this pan again? I'd suggest maybe re-thinking that.
7) Make sure the area by the rear main seal reatiner is good anf flat. Sometimes the retainer can be a little pronounced there, and cause an issue. Also, if this engine has ever had main studs installed, quite often the interfere witht he rear portion of the oil pan, and it will never seal. The front timing cover is also an area of suspect. The timing cover may not be as flush to the block as the pan is. In that case, you MAY need a touch of sealer there, but just a dab is all, put too much on and you create another problem.
8) The windage tray needs to be perfectly clean and flat. If its not, that will be a problem. The High Tack does work good for that area.
9) If you and others, have been torquing the hell out of this oil pan to try and stop leaks for a long time, then you have probably stretched the oil bolt holes and they are no longer flush. Use a large brass drif, witht he oil pan on a flat surface and get all the holes flat again, and DO NOT overtighten the pan.
My guess is, a few of the recent installs simply werent done correctly. As I said, I have done a lot of BBM's, and we actually have a very easy oil pan to seal up. IF you pay attention to all these things. If you are having another problem like crankcase ventilation etc, then nothing will work , short of gluing and welding it...so that would need to be addressed seperatly.
Take your time, dont be in a hurry, do it right the first time, and dont go buying stock in Permatex anytime soon, you simply dont need all this RTV if everything elses is right. Let the gasket do its job, which is to seal things, and I would suggest using a different gasket as well. Good luck
Todd I'm sure many here on the board appreciate the time and thought you put into your post. I sure do! 
Many times I simply run out of time explaining that if you have to use a bunch of sealers on your gaskets you either have component issues to start with or they are not much of a gasket.
I can honestly say that the pan gasket I put on the Charger 3 years ago has never weeped nor needed the bolts re-torqued. The pair on the Barracuda is going on 8 years? No wicking of oil and never touched the bolts on it either.
Free PROFESSIONAL advise is given, ie; no need for Lock Tite, yet goes unheeded.
Hope everything works out for the OP
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: roadhazard]
#1586372
03/02/14 06:28 PM
03/02/14 06:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,637
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,637
Rittman Ohio
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I like these bolts from Mancini and I stick both gaskets to the windage tray with spray on 3M trim adhesive and a small amount of Toyota black sealer on the seams where the cover meets the block. Here's the link to the bolt s http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopenstanset.htmlThey don't come loose Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1586373
03/02/14 07:03 PM
03/02/14 07:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Ha and those bolts have lock tight. I have the ARP bolts so not ditching those after what they cost! Even though it may not be necessary, lock tight won't hurt anything. FWIW, that high tack was very handy. It stuck the gaskets on pretty well but didn't dry so fast you couldn't reposition them a little bit after a few minutes. I am not a believer in RTV for this job. I only used a dab in the 4 joints where the black met the retainer/timing cover. I think that is where I went wrong last time I did the pan as I gobbed the RTV on everywhere (on the advice of a friend) and I spent so much time covering the gaskets with it, I think it had begun to set a bit. The same thing happened on my intake manifold. I find I have to have a helper to apply the RTV on the intake so I have it all done before the RTV begins to cure. Maybe I'm just that slow? Either way I got pissed about it and paid a mechanic to replace the leaky oil pan. The reason I had to re-do the gasket this time was **not** due to a leak. The pan was smashed by a careless body shop worker on their lift. A mechanic installed them, but I had the same Milodan gaskets on with nay a leak for over a year before this happened. 
Last edited by cjskotni; 03/02/14 07:05 PM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: cjskotni]
#1586374
03/02/14 07:38 PM
03/02/14 07:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,637
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,637
Rittman Ohio
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How in the he11 did your "MECHANIC" let it leave the shop like that  I'm baffled at how it happened in the first place let alone what kind of person would even let you see that kind of mistake. If an accident like that happened in my shop you would have a new pan installed free of charge. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1586375
03/02/14 08:32 PM
03/02/14 08:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
How in the he11 did your "MECHANIC" let it leave the shop like that
I'm baffled at how it happened in the first place let alone what kind of person would even let you see that kind of mistake.
If an accident like that happened in my shop you would have a new pan installed free of charge.
Gus
It was a body shop, not my mechanic. He paid for it to be replaced but yeah, I was pretty pissed. 
He swears that he had no idea and whatever monkey did it probably didn't hear/feel it happen but he paid for it so I can't complain too much. 
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I've heard to many other racers and engine builders complain about having to take a motor apart that had been assembled with the Wrong Stuff, not fun or easy 
