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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: cjskotni]
#1586376
03/02/14 09:37 PM
03/02/14 09:37 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
Yes I did have the infamous rear seal issues but I went to the 440source billet retainer with the Viton seals. Bone dry now for over a year. I guess I am one of the lucky ones now in that regard.
I have been using the Viton rear main seals, and they seem to seal really well. A bit pricy but worth it not to have oil leaks. The 440 source billet retainer is ok, it sat slightly lower than my oil pan rail, but sealed up fine.
Not sure why some don't like loctite on the bolts? There is very little torque to hold the bolts from loosening. The stainless ARP bolts seem to loosen easier than the stock bolts, maybe the rolled threads are too smooth, or the smooth bolt head on a smooth washer? Either way, not much friction to keep the bolt in place so I use some loctite, no big deal.
Last edited by 451Mopar; 03/02/14 09:38 PM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: cjskotni]
#1586377
03/02/14 10:37 PM
03/02/14 10:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Ha and those bolts have lock tight. I have the ARP bolts so not ditching those after what they cost!
Even though it may not be necessary, lock tight won't hurt anything. FWIW, that high tack was very handy. It stuck the gaskets on pretty well but didn't dry so fast you couldn't reposition them a little bit after a few minutes.
I am not a believer in RTV for this job. I only used a dab in the 4 joints where the black met the retainer/timing cover. I think that is where I went wrong last time I did the pan as I gobbed the RTV on everywhere (on the advice of a friend) and I spent so much time covering the gaskets with it, I think it had begun to set a bit. The same thing happened on my intake manifold. I find I have to have a helper to apply the RTV on the intake so I have it all done before the RTV begins to cure. Maybe I'm just that slow?
Either way I got pissed about it and paid a mechanic to replace the leaky oil pan.
The reason I had to re-do the gasket this time was **not** due to a leak. The pan was smashed by a careless body shop worker on their lift. A mechanic installed them, but I had the same Milodan gaskets on with nay a leak for over a year before this happened. 
Really ARP bolts for the oil pan make no difference. I have all grade 5 hardware store bolts on my junk.
The High Tack is great for just exactly the way you used it
The only place you need RTV on an intake is on the china rail and in the corners where the block and heads meet. I gather you're smearing it on and it's drying? Proper application is to place a 1/16"-1/8" "Bead".
I do understand you had to replace the pan because of damage and figured when you said you wanted it sealed "FOREVER" I assumed when you got it sealed up initially you didn't want to touch it for the next 10-15 years. Just about anything will seal for a year
Sorry about the body shop guy blasting your nice Moroso pan 
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1586378
03/02/14 10:46 PM
03/02/14 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
mopar4ya
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes I did have the infamous rear seal issues but I went to the 440source billet retainer with the Viton seals. Bone dry now for over a year. I guess I am one of the lucky ones now in that regard.
I have been using the Viton rear main seals, and they seem to seal really well. A bit pricy but worth it not to have oil leaks. The 440 source billet retainer is ok, it sat slightly lower than my oil pan rail, but sealed up fine.
Not sure why some don't like loctite on the bolts? There is very little torque to hold the bolts from loosening. The stainless ARP bolts seem to loosen easier than the stock bolts, maybe the rolled threads are too smooth, or the smooth bolt head on a smooth washer? Either way, not much friction to keep the bolt in place so I use some loctite, no big deal.
For what it's worth I was at a Loctite clinic about 20 years ago and was told by a Loctite tech person that there thread lockers would not work on a stainless steel fastener. Maybe now days they have a product. Anyone ever here of this?
Dan.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Supercuda]
#1586379
03/06/14 01:40 AM
03/06/14 01:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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I've used nothing but fishing line for years. No gasket sealers at all on Chevys and Oldsmobiles. Just pulled the pan on our 440/512 to replace leaky rear main seal,,,ended up using Mancini/440 source retainer setup. 2 hour job turned into 8 or more. First getting the pan free because the guy that put the motor together used blankety/blank ultra grey,,,and then a few more hours cleaning the crap off the windage tray,the block and the pan,,,a big pita.
Putting it all back together I left out the windage,,,damn going to lose 15 hp at 6,500 rpm,,,and just used the fish line thru 4 bolt holes to hold the gasket in place,,,,which is cut and pulled out when pan is buttoned down. If the rear main leaks again, wiil be a couple hour job.
Problem that I now have is this. I used a Milodon crush proof gasket and arp bolts torqued to 15 pounds. After a few miles of driving, had leaking at rear of pan. Checked bolts,,, all had loosened to less than 5 pounds. I re-torqued and again all soon loosened again. I then tried Permetex number 243 blue thread lock,,,supposedly works in the presence of oil,,,,don't believe it,,,did nothing even after cleaning bolts and bolt holes best I could with carb cleaner. I pulled and cleaned and replaced each bolt one at a time. Loose again.
So now rebolt again with lock washers, pitching arp's regular washers,,,they now seem to be holding torque better,,,,was wondering if so called "star" washers might hold better.
However also the Milodon gasket is squeezing out a bit at the backnear the flywheel cover,,,,and has cracked at a couple of the rear bolt holes. And is oil logged, so am seeping a bit of oil,,,so will be changing it out for another solution. May give the "Performance" gasket a try. It appears to be getting good press on this forum.
Overall a real PITA introduction to big block Mopars and oil leaks,,,,,I do own a 1956 Chrysler 300 B,,,and in 28 years has never leaked a drop. Wonder where those engineers were hanging out when Chrysler went with their wedges and 2nd gen Hemi',,. Christ lost my head again,,,,,the 1st Hemi's were rope sealed.
One other thought on pan bolts loosening. I said earlier that my engine is all bolted together with ARP. These appear to be stainless bolts. I am wondering if this is why the pan bolts will not hold torque(using a high quality Snap On torque wrench). Stainless against the cast steel of a oily block may not give enough friction,,,if against stainless all perhaps would be far better. I plan to call ARP to get their opinion. As to possible issues.
The Mopar pan is so simple( all flat design) compared to Olds or Chevy,,,have not figured why it is so tough to seal, whereas I've never in 40 years had leak issues with them. Is it the design of the mating surfaces,,,or again the arp bolts,,,or the Milodon anti crush gasket? Pan and block surfaces were totally and perfectly clean and pan surface was completely flat. Interesting how Moroso gasket has partially squeezed out at rear,,,but does not explain continuos bolt loosening. Leak is minor at this time and occurs only after mildly hard driving. But still should be zero.
Likely I will post a new thread(with even more detail)on this topic to get some opinions. There are some sharp minds that I have seen since joining this forum,,,someone(s) know..
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 03/07/14 08:18 PM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: mopar4ya]
#1586380
03/06/14 04:26 AM
03/06/14 04:26 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yes I did have the infamous rear seal issues but I went to the 440source billet retainer with the Viton seals. Bone dry now for over a year. I guess I am one of the lucky ones now in that regard.
I have been using the Viton rear main seals, and they seem to seal really well. A bit pricy but worth it not to have oil leaks. The 440 source billet retainer is ok, it sat slightly lower than my oil pan rail, but sealed up fine.
Not sure why some don't like loctite on the bolts? There is very little torque to hold the bolts from loosening. The stainless ARP bolts seem to loosen easier than the stock bolts, maybe the rolled threads are too smooth, or the smooth bolt head on a smooth washer? Either way, not much friction to keep the bolt in place so I use some loctite, no big deal.
For what it's worth I was at a Loctite clinic about 20 years ago and was told by a Loctite tech person that there thread lockers would not work on a stainless steel fastener. Maybe now days they have a product. Anyone ever here of this?
Dan.
I'm not sure it works the same on stainless as it does on regular steel, but after it drys (turns like chalky white?) it does add some resistance to loosening. The bolts can still be loosened with a wrench pretty easy. I just used the ARP bolts because they came in the engine bolt kit, but the Mopar ones from Mancini (there is a link in another post) I think would work better. It looks like they have a larger captured washer, and come with thread locker already applied.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: mopar4ya]
#1586381
03/06/14 09:10 AM
03/06/14 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yes I did have the infamous rear seal issues but I went to the 440source billet retainer with the Viton seals. Bone dry now for over a year. I guess I am one of the lucky ones now in that regard.
I have been using the Viton rear main seals, and they seem to seal really well. A bit pricy but worth it not to have oil leaks. The 440 source billet retainer is ok, it sat slightly lower than my oil pan rail, but sealed up fine.
Not sure why some don't like loctite on the bolts? There is very little torque to hold the bolts from loosening. The stainless ARP bolts seem to loosen easier than the stock bolts, maybe the rolled threads are too smooth, or the smooth bolt head on a smooth washer? Either way, not much friction to keep the bolt in place so I use some loctite, no big deal.
For what it's worth I was at a Loctite clinic about 20 years ago and was told by a Loctite tech person that there thread lockers would not work on a stainless steel fastener. Maybe now days they have a product. Anyone ever here of this?
Dan.
As I note elsewhere on this thread,,,I am suspecting that arp bolts being apparently stainless(stainless against regular steel such as is engine block will have much less friction than against stainless) cause of my pan bolts continually losing torque,,,,,and even blue number 243 locktite or permetex lookalike does not help. I believe that other bolt material(regular steel) or lock washers are the key,,,,perhaps star washers may even be better,,,I plan to try them.
Very interesting comment on thread locker as ineffective with stainless bolts. As I observed and noted in my recent post,,,,,blue number 243(suppose to work in the presence of oil) did nothing at all,,,,but lock washers have. I will query locktite on this.
Also i am suspecting that using the arp supplied flat washers compound the problem of loosening as they likely reduce any remaining friction that might exist
Post Extras:
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 03/06/14 09:23 AM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1586382
03/06/14 10:40 AM
03/06/14 10:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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I looked at the data sheet for the lock tight and it shows a longer cure time but still effective with stainless steel. data sheet I will agree the ARP bolts seem to want to loosen up overall compared to standard bolts. I suspect the rolled threads and general smoother construction leads to less friction than a rusty old steel bolt. I went with the RED lock tight on my bolts to help avoid this. I would feel better with lock washers or stars to help give the bolts some 'bite' into the pan rail. Their material sheet specifies a breakaway torque of around 250 in-lbs so that should hold it. Heck I just found one of my engine mount bolts was missing a nut where it had loosened up and fell off! Again, ARP bolts here.....and now they got the RED lock tight treatment.  I have my pan back on but haven't filled with oil yet as I am still getting my steering setup ready. Hopefully no leaks.  If this doesn't work, I may start going to lock washers on all these ARP bolts I am using.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Stanton]
#1586384
03/06/14 01:44 PM
03/06/14 01:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
With regards to Loctite not holding on stainless; every external bolt on my motor is stainless. Every one is installed with 40-year old Loctite blue. I haven't had an issue. Every bolt I've pulled had required about the same amount of torque to loosen it as it did to tighten.
These are over-the-counter stainless bolts, not pretty ARP pieces but never-the-less it kinda kills that "doesn't work on stainless" idea.
I would suggest another call to Loctite if there is any concern rather than relying on someone's memory from a few years back. Not sayin' it isn't true, just sayin' its worth confirming.
If you want bolts that don't come loose on the oilpan, go to a bolt supply place (not Home Depot!!) and get bolts with the little nylon insert in them. These things NEVER back out under their own power. Otherwise an internal star washer works good.
For sealing the pan I spoke to the guys at Muscle Motors and bought their funky gasket. Then I took their advice and "layed the RTV to it". I'm pretty sure I could take out all the bolts and not worry about the pan leaking or falling off !!!
Two things, fishing line works as a field expedient when you do not have those bolts with the nylon insert you mentioned.
Gooping RTV on, all the RTV that squishes out when you tighten things up is mirrored by RTV squishing in as well. You cannot get to the RTV on the inside and if a chunk breaks off you might have problems. Lost a 413 due to this very issue. Had a leaky thermostat housing (chrome one of course) that I finally gooped a ton of RTV on to "fix it". Yeah, I fix it it alright. A chunk broke off, kept the thermostat from opening and it overheated, by the time I could get off the highway in San Diego to a place it was safe for me to be with my daughter the 413 was toasted.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Supercuda]
#1586385
03/06/14 09:54 PM
03/06/14 09:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
......gooped a ton of RTV on ...... a chunk broke off, kept the thermostat from opening and it overheated, by the time I could get off the highway in San Diego to a place it was safe for me to be with my daughter the 413 was toasted.
Wow
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: Stanton]
#1586386
03/07/14 05:46 PM
03/07/14 05:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Could you provide more info on bolts with nylon inserts. I am aware of such nuts, but never heard of such bolts
I did speak to a very knowledgeable lady in their industrial tech support department. She said that stainless was a difficult material. Said that their 243 blue product(this product is an upgrade from their standard blue 242 product which does a better job in a contaminated environment,,,read oily) had a problem with stainless and that the recently upgraded version has been improved so as to no longer requires primer step before applying 243 or 242. The primer is used to "etch" no n-compat metals so as to allow their products to so their job,,,,somewhat complex system,,,go to their website
Also she told me that locktite should be applied in bolt holes,,,not only on bolts when used in "blind" holes as air that is forced out blows locktite off bolt threads,,,,,somewhat hard to do when engine is in car and you are looking up trying to do this.
I too have arp bolts everywhere in my engine,,,,only the pan is causing issues,,,removing arp's flat washer, replacing with lock washer has helped but no home run
I have now ordered up a super performance gasket and a new set of mr. Gasket steel bolts. Not only are they not stainless, but also have serrations under the head,,,hopefully to help hold in place once torqued,,,although now am somewhat concerned that serrations may distort torque readings.
My experience suggests not to use arp bolts on oil pan,,,in particular with their included washers. Replace with lock or star washers if you insist to use. Locktite in this environment is suspect unless you have a perfectly sanitary bolt hole and bolt,,,and I would still only use 243,,,,hard to find but amazon has it.
Incidentally I did call arp tech support on this. Told the tech that I had torqued to 15 pounds. He axed what size bolts. I said 5 16ths. He said that was my problem, that I should tighten to 24 pounds. No manner my argument about oil pan distortion etc. he was not persuaded and told me that if I did not go 24 pounds that the bolts would always loosen
Draw your own conclusions on arp's official recommendation from their tech
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 03/07/14 05:51 PM.
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: cjskotni]
#1586389
03/07/14 07:08 PM
03/07/14 07:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
24 ft-lbs is way too high for an oil pan. You are either going to split a gasket or indent the pan flange doing that. I know SS does not work as well with lock tight but it does work some. That's why I went to the RED on the ARP bolts. If this doesn't hold, I may have to try the lock washer route as well...
I love the way those ARP bolts look but I have noticed that they love to loosen up anywhere.
That is because they require more torque to be put into tension, to maintain the torque value 
I know our oil pan gasket can handle that type of torque. However I would not recommend it with a stamped steel oil pan, just the fabricated aluminum pans with the thick solid rail
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Re: How to Seal Oil Pan From Leaking FOREVER??
[Re: roadhazard]
#1586390
03/07/14 07:33 PM
03/07/14 07:33 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I once had a circle track engine to work on, was built by Maurice Petty. It had the most amazing RTV like substance I have ever seen on anything holing the pan on and under the intake end rails. I Swear...I thought about giving the engine back to the customer after working to get that pan off!! It was stronger than windshield sealer!! I have never ever seen anything like it before..If you glued a safe door shut with it you would Never be able to open it--Ever! I inquired and was told that they lost a race one time over an oil leak and that he stated that would never happen again. I am here to tell you with the stuff they used there was NO need for pan bolts , and that is not a joke. We actually used a different oil pan as it was easier than getting that stuff off. I never found out exactly what it was --sort of silver looking
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