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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: mopardamo]
#1568583
01/26/14 05:14 PM
01/26/14 05:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 126
mass
kotacars
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 126
mass
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Just a well balanced car front is 50.7 rear is 49.0 nascar style sway bar b body lower control arms b body spindles Hotchkis upper control arms big bermbo brakes 18x9 rims 275 30 18 tires rear is just the basic stuff leaf springs adjustable sway bar 315 30 18 tires just a small block making a nice torque curve 500 plus all the way to 6500 RPMs 630 hp. A lot of time on the track and street tuning
Even if you were to do a full tube chassis using the lastest and greatest parts you will it a brick wall with the aero these old cars have I am just out to do what GM guys have been doing for a long time long before mark stielow was considered the god father of pro touring. In fact in 1987 HO racing using simple bolt on parts of there own design pulled 1g on the skid pad. I don t feel my car is all that trick I have just combined parts that work and yes it was not cheap I am right at 100k myself and still developing this car to its full potential.
Last edited by 406ciW5; 01/26/14 05:38 PM.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1568585
01/26/14 07:01 PM
01/26/14 07:01 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
ntstlgl1970
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
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Quote:
Define which Stielow Camaro you want to talk about first. The guy has built fifteen of them.
FWIW, I seem to recall a recent comparions of Stielow's Red Devil (maybe his most famous one) to a modern ZL1. Net result was you could buy 2.5 new ZL1s and have some change left over for a daily driver compared to what it took to build the Red Devil Camaro.
I think this is a good point - how many has Mark built (think of all the development time he has under his belt - I'm sure he can sort an first gen F body pretty quick) vs. what just about anyone else has done, plus isn't he a GM engineer with some good connections too? I think we (the Mopar crowd) are about 10 years behind on this kind of stuff IMO  The other thing you don't see mentioned very often is torsional rigidity. Don't get me wrong, I love old mopars, but I don't expect my old Plymouth to ever handle as well as a new challenger or viper and I'm ok with that.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: ntstlgl1970]
#1568586
01/26/14 07:30 PM
01/26/14 07:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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I think he was the suspension engineer on the new Z28 Camaro which pulls like 1.05g cornering.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: Viol8r]
#1568588
01/27/14 02:42 AM
01/27/14 02:42 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
The craftsmanship and engineering on his cars are second to none.
We are 10 years from having something that can run with cars like that. I have in the realm of 100k in mine......You can double that in Stielows. 700hp, anti-loc, traction control, please!
I agree 100%; and that Camaro was now 2 versions ago. He is working on XV now. Mark is a "perfect storm" of ingenuity and opportunity that I don't think exists at Mopar or Ford anymore. We would have to have had someone transplanting Viper tech into E-Bodies for the last 15 years to catch up to Stielow. Just remember, the current car Stielow is building is Version #15! That said, Stielow HAS lost 2 years running to Brian's 2nd Gen CP car and his Vette. Mark just kept beating him at the design challenges until his win this year.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1568590
01/27/14 10:19 AM
01/27/14 10:19 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Power, weight, handling and driver. It can be broken down to those basic items and all of them need to be sorted to produce a winning car.
Mopars can produce the power - 650+ hp out of a Gen 3 is not a problem. We can make enough power. We don't need 750 hp if we can make weight. Stielow admits that he can't use all the power his car makes anyway.
Mopars can make weight - A sorted A Body is going to have about 200 lbs on Stielow's Camaro, if not more. Not sure about Brian's car, haven't seen a weight on that. I would hope that would be more on par with an A Body and be down under 3000.
Mopars can handle - Just look at the autocross results at the same events the rest of these cars are attending. E Max is right there, nothing unobtainable in that car and it's overweight and severely down on power. The Taxi is 7 seconds slower than Stielow at Gingerman on the 2.14 mile course. Yes, that is within reason with the car being down 250+ hp and heavy by 600+ lbs. Mopars are not getting beat at these events because they can't handle, or stop.
Driver - As far as the driver goes, you can't just go get a pro to wheel your car at these events. Even if you have the most power and the best handing, unless you can wheel it as well as the other people currently finishing in the Top 5 you're done before you started. Remember that Randy Pobst (a pro) flung a new AMG Wagon around Pahrump within a couple seconds of the fastest cars this year. The times are somewhere online, but that wagon weighs 4733 lbs and makes something like 577 hp. Overweight by 1500 lbs and down 200 hp, but still within the Top 10 in road course times. The driver is a significant portion of this equation.
So, until the planets align and get all of these things in the same Mopar, we will never know.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: kotacars]
#1568592
01/27/14 10:40 AM
01/27/14 10:40 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Quote:
Well maybe there should be a grudge match who are the fastest mopars and drives on a road course and where do they rate to stielow
Why does there need to be a grudge match? Just show up to the USCA events and run with everybody else. You will see where you and your car rate at the end of the weekend.
It appears you are attempting to stir the pot for some reason. Care to share what that reason is?
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: kotacars]
#1568594
01/27/14 10:48 AM
01/27/14 10:48 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
So Dan being a suspension engineer with Hotchkis you are saying that a old mopar will not reach the level Mark Stielow is at with his camaros? What if you take all that Mark has done with detroit speed parts and put it into a mopar that shares the same wheel base a good aero with a engine and trans package that can match his
We'e trying right now, with Kevin's 76 Dart. It'll be a hell of a car for sure. And he is a fantastic driver, so I think that he will do really well once the car is sorted.
Our Mopar suspensions have a lot to offer, but are far from perfect. We look at the numbers and know the cars shouldn't be as fast as they are, but with a bit of luck and some really handy drivers, the cars do exceptionally well for what they are. There are a lot of set backs and limitations unless you are willing to make some serious compromises though to achieve a really good COG and balance to these cars. And as a Mopar guy, I just can't get myself to hack one up enough to do it. The guys at JCG have though, with the 70 R/T the cut up and installed a full C6 Based custom subframe/LS2 and flared the crap out of the fenders to get massive tires on all four corners. They have been testing for a couple months and the car looks promising with a good driver, and I'm sure it'll only get better. But again, sacrifices I'm not willing to make for the sake of speed.
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af27...zps71d671d4.jpg
I think the biggest point that a lot of folks miss with Stielow's cars is that they are "true" cars as well. Tunes, heater, A/C, power options, traction control, ABS, ect. All this stuff adds up to a car that is not just fast, but does real car stuff. To top that off, he is a suspension engineer for GM and gets a lot of cool stuff to play with on his cars.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: kotacars]
#1568595
01/27/14 10:56 AM
01/27/14 10:56 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Quote:
Sorry if it seams that way just looking to find these fast mopars and how they compair to marks camaros
Simple answer... there has not been a properly constructed package that has been campaigned in the same events to use as a comparison. It just doesn't exist yet. The cars that have competed in the same events have been overweight and under powered. Apples to Oranges before you can even get to see where the suspension is the limiting factor.
There are a ton of cars out there that have all kinds of power and modifications, but they don't seem to ever show up. Can't judge them if they stay in the garage.
If somebody shows up with a 650+ hp package, with a decent weight of 3,300 or less, then we can start to review the other areas and see about completing the comparison.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: Consulier]
#1568598
01/27/14 03:02 PM
01/27/14 03:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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What are the rear suspension plans for this 76 Dart? With any decent power the rear springs will wad up like throwing spaghetti on a cupboard door.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1568599
01/27/14 03:18 PM
01/27/14 03:18 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Quote:
What are the rear suspension plans for this 76 Dart? With any decent power the rear springs will wad up like throwing spaghetti on a cupboard door.
Leaf springs
It's going to start with a bone stock 6.4 with headers, no cats and a decent CAL. Nothing crazy, you really don't need 750 hp to be competitive at these events. If the car is down on power I'll add a blower or spray it.
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