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Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack #1564248
01/16/14 10:37 PM
01/16/14 10:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Hi!

I have a 440.6 engine on my 71 cuda.

Its been nicely rebuilt.

Forged pistons, 9,4:1 compression ratio (to run on pump gas)
punched 55 over it displaces 451 CID
Bowl ported and port matched 452 cast iron heads with a nice competition valvejob
2.14 intake valves
1.88 exhaust valves
stock exh manifolds
full exhaust
stock 6 pack carbs

Car is a 4 speed.
3.54 Dana 60

This is the cam I have installed in it (attached pic).

Do you guys think there would be any gains in going to a different Hydraulic grind (I wish to stay with a hydraulic flat tappet).

I feel the engine is torquey and really moves at lower rpms but it peaks out and then hits a plateau and stays "flat", i dont feel like it keeps pulling at higher RPMs, specially when Ive taken it to the drag strip.


8000445-014.JPG (154 downloads)
Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564249
01/16/14 10:44 PM
01/16/14 10:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
L
lewtot184 Offline
master
lewtot184  Offline
master
L

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
that cam is too short and the lobe separation is too tight. i bet it's wheezing at 5000rpm. a summit 6401 would be better. use a wider lobe separation with those exhaust manifolds and keep the valve overlap down.

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564250
01/16/14 11:15 PM
01/16/14 11:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
master
Brian Hafliger  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Quote:

Hi!

I have a 440.6 engine on my 71 cuda.

Its been nicely rebuilt.

Forged pistons, 9,4:1 compression ratio
punched 55 over it displaces 451 CID
Bowl ported and port matched 452 heads with a nice competition valvejob
2.14 intake valves
1.88 exhaust valves
stock exh manifolds
full exhaust
stock 6 pack carbs

Car is a 4 speed.
3.54 Dana 60

This is the cam I have installed in it (attached pic).

Do you guys think there would be any gains in going to a different Hydraulic grind (I wish to stay with a hydraulic flat tappet).

I feel the engine is torquey and really moves at lower rpms but it peaks out and then hits a plateau and stays "flat", i dont feel like it keeps pulling at higher RPMs, specially when Ive taken it to the drag strip.






If you are using stock rockers, I would say 236-242@ .050 on a 111 lca will likely add 20-25 HP.
Brian


Brian Hafliger
Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1564251
01/16/14 11:35 PM
01/16/14 11:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Yes, stock stamped rockers.

Any advantages in using a different rocker if the cam stays a flat tapped hydraulic?

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564252
01/17/14 01:44 AM
01/17/14 01:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564253
01/17/14 02:35 AM
01/17/14 02:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 903
Saskatchewan, Canada
cudabin Offline
super stock
cudabin  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 903
Saskatchewan, Canada
Factory manifolds and lower compression like yours would work great with a Mr Six pack Cam.

I just finished a similar build and made 450hp...

114 - 115 LSA will help with manifolds.

Cheers,

Arnie


67 Cuda 8.48@ 158.7 mph 1.18 60' 2,600 DA(so far...) 70 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 4-speed. 13.2 @ 104 Stock exhaust/Street tires.
Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564254
01/17/14 03:44 AM
01/17/14 03:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
4
4406bbl Offline
top fuel
4406bbl  Offline
top fuel
4

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
No, not too much, idle will be rough, would work better with 4.10 gears. This cam will make good power thru 6500, works with your stock rockers, and will need carb tuning to work. If you use this cam advance it 4 degrees.

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: 4406bbl] #1564255
01/17/14 05:06 AM
01/17/14 05:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 214
Hamburg / Germany
D
Den300 Offline
enthusiast
Den300  Offline
enthusiast
D

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 214
Hamburg / Germany
call scott brown, he can help you


Hamburg/Germany

69 Chrysler 300
446cui Dual Quad
12.64 @ 110.7

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: cudabin] #1564256
01/17/14 09:20 AM
01/17/14 09:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,321
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
master
BSB67  Offline
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Prospect, PA
Quote:

Factory manifolds and lower compression like yours would work great with a Mr Six pack Cam.

I just finished a similar build and made 450hp...

114 - 115 LSA will help with manifolds.

Cheers,

Arnie




Did you have a chance to get it to the track last year? Really looking forward to those results.

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: BSB67] #1564257
01/17/14 10:12 AM
01/17/14 10:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Yes, it ran a best of 14.2ish on street tires (255 BF Goodrich radial TAs).

It just spun the tires like crazy, it wouldnt hook up (was to be expected with those tires).

But what I didnt like at all is that it pulled hard and then it reached a plateau and it didnt pull any more. It felt SLOW. I went thru the traps at the top end of 3rd gear but it stopped pulling WAAAAY before i went thru the traps...it felt really slow.

I want the car to keep pulling like crazy till the end.

I dont have a tach installed so I dont know at what RPMs it stalled-

I dont mind a lopey idle.

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564258
01/17/14 12:18 PM
01/17/14 12:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
For max results I'd have a custom cam made.
FWIW I really liked the 440-6 I did w/ a MP528 solid. It had good range and pulled hard. It did tighten the lash up from the factory setting...

these might work.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-21-225-4/overview/make/dodge

bigger
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-21-228-4/overview/make/dodge


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: Mr.Yuck] #1564259
01/17/14 09:26 PM
01/17/14 09:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
What if I get a cam from Hughes Engines? Are those cams ne good?

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564260
01/17/14 10:01 PM
01/17/14 10:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 596
Nashville, Tennessee
Tempest Offline
mopar
Tempest  Offline
mopar

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Nashville, Tennessee
Quote:

Yes, it ran a best of 14.2ish on street tires (255 BF Goodrich radial TAs).




What was the MPH?

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: Tempest] #1564261
01/17/14 10:29 PM
01/17/14 10:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Quote:

Quote:

Yes, it ran a best of 14.2ish on street tires (255 BF Goodrich radial TAs).




What was the MPH?




we dont get that at our [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] 3rd world track! Just RT ET TT and 60 ft

We race pro tree

I have a slip here of one of the passes:

Reaction: 0.5
60 : 2.51
ET: 14,49
TT: 14,99

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: BSB67] #1564262
01/17/14 11:37 PM
01/17/14 11:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 903
Saskatchewan, Canada
cudabin Offline
super stock
cudabin  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 903
Saskatchewan, Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Factory manifolds and lower compression like yours would work great with a Mr Six pack Cam.

I just finished a similar build and made 450hp...

114 - 115 LSA will help with manifolds.

Cheers,

Arnie




Did you have a chance to get it to the track last year? Really looking forward to those results.





Not yet, but I am ordering some 255/60R15 ET Radials and going to take it to the track for sure in May! Should run a 12.80 if DA is around 4,000 feet...

Arnie


67 Cuda 8.48@ 158.7 mph 1.18 60' 2,600 DA(so far...) 70 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 4-speed. 13.2 @ 104 Stock exhaust/Street tires.
Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564263
01/18/14 01:33 AM
01/18/14 01:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,255
Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
master
WO23Coronet  Offline
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Canada
You may have other issues if it gases out and you can't get out of 3rd gear in the 1/4, you should be well on your way into 4th by then with 3.54 gears

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: WO23Coronet] #1564264
01/18/14 05:49 AM
01/18/14 05:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Quote:

You may have other issues if it gases out and you can't get out of 3rd gear in the 1/4, you should be well on your way into 4th by then with 3.54 gears




You are right....

I had to shift into 4th on a few passes---I was crossing just when it begged for 4th-

when I shifted into 4th I crossed the traps right after shifting....

On some passes I shifted on some I didnt!

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564265
01/18/14 01:11 PM
01/18/14 01:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,892
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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Streetwize  Offline
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Posts: 9,892
Weddington, N.C.
Comp 270 (what you have) is a decent 440 stock replacement cam but not big enough to wind the motor up.

A couple great Cams were the old Crower 226/236 @.050 and the 231/240 @.050 Hydraulics but 240 on the exhaust is close to the edge of where I like to go with Exhaust manifolds unless you spread the centers out and put the cam in a bit later (both of which is better for higher RPM's on a smallish port 440). The smaller Crower I mentioned went 12.30's @ 111 all day long in my old stock six pack bottom end 440 in a 3710 pound curb weight Charger 4 speed in the heat of the summer, but it had the little Pea shooter hedman headers and a performer RPM with a tweaked 830 on it. and that was 20 years ago with bowl ported stock heads.

About a year ago I sent a customer a custom Ground Bullet Cam single pattern for a 416" small block in his E body automatic with 3.91's and a GV O/D, very broad powerband and still great cruising in OD with 3 friends in the car. So something similar in size should work very well as well for your six pack. With a 4 speed low end torque is not an issue, you almost want to take a little off the bottom and move it up top.

The key is getting the @.050 and @.200 numbers right for the combo so you don't kill torque and have plenty of air/fuel up top. With manifolds your "5th cycle" overlap scavenging assisting the intake charge achieve >100% VE, is fairly narrow and easy to either overshoot or undershoot, the key is to make the most of it because as most of us know 440's, (like Buicks and many fords) really ET on TORQUE, not so much peak HP.

That's why publishing dyno numbers without the corresponding horsepower and torque band charts are about useless to me.

Pretty sure Bob K (Mr six pack) has that figured out pretty well, I never had one but I'm temped to try one next time out, I think he's got that 5th cycle pretty much optimized for the six packs flow characteristics, I think his "cheater" is NHRA stock legal lift (like .465?), don't know if he has a higher lift version. I know Dan Dvorak used to have a stock lift port job that flowed gangbusters up to about .480 lift but then went turbulent, definitely an application specific type port job but I suspect it would work awesomely with the Mr6pack cam.

Last edited by Streetwize; 01/18/14 01:23 PM.

WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: Streetwize] #1564266
01/18/14 02:31 PM
01/18/14 02:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Quote:

Comp 270 (what you have) is a decent 440 stock replacement cam but not big enough to wind the motor up.

A couple great Cams were the old Crower 226/236 @.050 and the 231/240 @.050 Hydraulics but 240 on the exhaust is close to the edge of where I like to go with Exhaust manifolds unless you spread the centers out and put the cam in a bit later (both of which is better for higher RPM's on a smallish port 440). The smaller Crower I mentioned went 12.30's @ 111 all day long in my old stock six pack bottom end 440 in a 3710 pound curb weight Charger 4 speed in the heat of the summer, but it had the little Pea shooter hedman headers and a performer RPM with a tweaked 830 on it. and that was 20 years ago with bowl ported stock heads.

About a year ago I sent a customer a custom Ground Bullet Cam single pattern for a 416" small block in his E body automatic with 3.91's and a GV O/D, very broad powerband and still great cruising in OD with 3 friends in the car. So something similar in size should work very well as well for your six pack. With a 4 speed low end torque is not an issue, you almost want to take a little off the bottom and move it up top.

The key is getting the @.050 and @.200 numbers right for the combo so you don't kill torque and have plenty of air/fuel up top. With manifolds your "5th cycle" overlap scavenging assisting the intake charge achieve >100% VE, is fairly narrow and easy to either overshoot or undershoot, the key is to make the most of it because as most of us know 440's, (like Buicks and many fords) really ET on TORQUE, not so much peak HP.

That's why publishing dyno numbers without the corresponding horsepower and torque band charts are about useless to me.

Pretty sure Bob K (Mr six pack) has that figured out pretty well, I never had one but I'm temped to try one next time out, I think he's got that 5th cycle pretty much optimized for the six packs flow characteristics, I think his "cheater" is NHRA stock legal lift (like .465?), don't know if he has a higher lift version. I know Dan Dvorak used to have a stock lift port job that flowed gangbusters up to about .480 lift but then went turbulent, definitely an application specific type port job but I suspect it would work awesomely with the Mr6pack cam.







Thats waaay beyond my comprehension....LOL

I called BOB K and he said he is having a hard time getting cams ground so he is not doing it at the present moment!!!

I think I will call him again to see if he is having them ground again....or maybe call Scott Brown? Hughes??? Or what about you Wize??? Might want to give it a shot?????

Re: Help me choose a cam for this "stockish" 440 6 pack [Re: domingo] #1564267
01/18/14 03:27 PM
01/18/14 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,892
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
master
Streetwize  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,892
Weddington, N.C.
I do have an account with Bullet, they've been grinding custom grinds for myself and customers for years.....but

I remember Dwayne (Fast68Plymouth) also liked the 231/240 Crower cam, he's a great source for cam grinding as well. In several 'back to back' blind taste tests He and I usually spec cams that are uncannily close to one-other, (ask 70Blackfish as one example) which to me is an honor because I have tremendous respect for him I usually defer to Dwayne for people to buy cams from, after-all Engines are his bread and butter and career but for me it's much more a side-line ( I work full time as an engineer).

Hughes has got some nice grinds too but not aware if they do any custom grinds, I'm pretty sure Bullet does there cams now.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
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