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Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... #1562513
01/13/14 01:48 AM
01/13/14 01:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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I've finally finished with getting the Charger running again. Today I was out burning some fuel and taking some corners. Plenty of fun. The steering response is as sharp as it ever has been. The car stays flat during cornering but I notice that the harder I corner, the more it wants to oversteer.
The car is an all steel 70 Charger with a 440/493, a 727 with a GV OD and an 8 3/4 axle. I'm running 1" T bars and a custom 1.25 solid front sway bar. Rear is the XHD leaf springs and a 7/8" Addco sway bar. KYB shocks. Front wheels: 18x9 with 275/40/18 Nitto 555s. Rear is 18x10 with 295/45/18 Nittos.
I understand the basics. To reduce oversteer, you need to to either reduce the rear roll stiffness or increase the front. This is where I am unsure as what to do. I could go with a smaller rear sway bar. Awhile back I removed the rear bar and ran without one. The handling was neutral but it had more body roll than I liked. I suppose that 3/4" bars are available, right?
The other option is going with higher roll stiffness up front. The 1.25 sway bar I have is a modified bar OEM for a 73-87 GM 1 ton 2WD pickup. I doubt anyone makes a bigger front bar. That leaves bigger Torsion bars. I actually like the ride of the car as is but if a switch to larger torsion bars would help, I might consider it. Trouble is, torsion bars are not cheap! Not that I'm totally hung up on money, but the last I checked, 1.14 bars were over $300!
Advice?

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Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562514
01/13/14 10:15 AM
01/13/14 10:15 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
5. Options-

1. More front spring (probably a good idea)
2. More front bar
3. Less rear spring (probably the best)
4. Less rear bar (adjustable?)
5. Buy Bars and springs from Hotchkis so that everything is already a balanced package!

Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562515
01/13/14 10:22 AM
01/13/14 10:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,168
Here
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jcc Offline
No soup for you!!!
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J

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You don't have many options on bigger Swaybars, but bigger TB you do, the 1.14" will be a noticeable step, but IMO your best solution, sell the 1" tb, theres lots of guys still stuck in the 90's


I forbid my content here from being learned and used by artificial intelligence systems.
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: jcc] #1562516
01/13/14 10:37 AM
01/13/14 10:37 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
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Houston Tx
Is this primarily a street car? Will it ever see the track?

If I were you, I would download an app with a g force meter and go test the car in an open parking lot. (trakpal for iPhone is free and works). See what your max cornering is with and without the rear bar attached. Hopefully one overseers and the other under steers, and you can pick a rear bar or new leafs based on that data.

I'm a fan of Hellwig adjustable rear bars. You might need a custom diameter, which they will make for a fee.


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Uhcoog1] #1562517
01/13/14 01:01 PM
01/13/14 01:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
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Here
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

See what your max cornering is with and without the rear bar attached. Hopefully one overseers and the other under steers,




yes this, I missed his rear bar, sorry, although I would chase nuetral over max


I forbid my content here from being learned and used by artificial intelligence systems.
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562518
01/13/14 09:37 PM
01/13/14 09:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,137
Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Perhaps a silly question but have you tried altering the air pressure in the rear tires? Add a bit more air and see how it handles.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: feets] #1562519
01/13/14 10:22 PM
01/13/14 10:22 PM
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Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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Get the 1.14" bars and a set Fox shocks and IMO you will be suprised beyond belief. The car will roll even less and tighten up at the same time.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: 72Swinger] #1562520
01/13/14 10:57 PM
01/13/14 10:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I haven't played with air pressure settings. I usually set it at 34-36 on all 4 tires.
The rear bar I have is non adjustable and is axle mounted. I like the idea of an adjustable but since this is a dedicated street car, My assumption is that once I get the car feeling balanced, no more adjustment would be needed.
Some guys mention larger Torsion bars as a way to go. I certainly do not want a rock hard ride. Is it possible that a bigger torsion bar with better shocks can actually result in a better ride?
Softening the rear spring rate could be done by removing a single leaf. Anyone care to suggest which leaf to remove? maybe the one closest to the main leaf?

Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: jcc] #1562521
01/14/14 12:57 AM
01/14/14 12:57 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

See what your max cornering is with and without the rear bar attached. Hopefully one overseers and the other under steers,




yes this, I missed his rear bar, sorry, although I would chase nuetral over max




Point in him doing that 'test' would be so he has data to decide what needs to be done and by how much.

If he ran with the rear bar and lost traction in the rear at .8 G, and then without the rear bar and lost traction in the front at .8 G, then I would recommend he reduce his rear roll resistance by half of the current rear bar's roll resistance (you can swap rear bars or rear leafs to get that change).

All to find neutral, of course.

This is a 'free' way to get a better handle on what to change and by how much.


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Uhcoog1] #1562522
01/14/14 01:03 AM
01/14/14 01:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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PHJ426 Offline
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Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: PHJ426] #1562523
01/14/14 01:48 AM
01/14/14 01:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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NW Chicago suburban area
The data sheet is excellent.. all of us should have such data so we know our cars better.. like "blueprinting" our car's specs, etc.

Tire pressures will help you know, and collect more data, on the car's charachteristics.

Any TB larger that the 1.0 will show progressively both less dive and lift, as well as less leaning. My suggestion.. at least the 1.1.. but you will NOT regret a 1.12, 1.14, 1.18 (FF) for street driving, even considering your short sidewall tires.. and the psi of them to played with... consider ~34f-32r, or 36f-34r, or 36f-32r ... since you have a heavier front end with the BB engine, you absolutely want a little more front psi than the rear, not the same f/r. AND... watch out for pot holes with those short sidewall tires. DON'T BE AFRAID OF ANY "HARSH RIDE" WITH THESE SUGGESTED LARGER TBS.. YOU WON'T REGRET IT! (I'm sure you know that I have 1.24 TBs, 225/5 rear leafs.. on my Challenger... and drive on the street/hwy... NOT harsh.. but yes, stiff and barable/drivable... I love it.. and its always ready for competition as well... just a matter of which rims/tires I choose to run that day.)

Rear leafs... you say you have XHD.. what are they?? what brand? Who's are they? Specs? pounds/inch? Remaining arch when compressed at rest? Flatter is better.. and if you carry stuff/passengers, etc in the trunk, take that into consideration. TOO Stiff in the rear and you Will notice it more than the stiffer front TBs.

Shocks... Many newer/better shocks than KYBs... I personally favor having fully adustables (I have Konis), such as QA1 dbl-adjustables, so that YOU can fine-tune the ride to YOUR exact car and the way ITs setup. However, the QA1 2x (and other similar same type) are pretty expensive, but you wouldn't regret it either (if you can overlook the expense... ~$1200-1500 for 4?).

Sway bars... the 1.25 front is good; the rear could be at least .875 or 1.0" (I have 1.25"f/1.0"r)... just learn how to drive the car and set yourself up properly for turns/curves, braking, accelerating, etc.... it won't come overnight.

Consider getting a better lateral-support driver's seat... and a smaller steering wheel (unless you've done those already).

Also, the upper control arms from the factory need to be changed (Hotchkis, FF, etc), or at least the Moog offset uca bushings installed... to get more caster/camber.... and be sure the toe is set ~1/16"IN for street/hwy, or zero.

I used to own a daily driver 70 500 Charger (drunk driver totaled it in front of my house!)... your car is beautiful!



Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1562524
01/14/14 05:19 PM
01/14/14 05:19 PM
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Posts: 28,137
Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Quote:

Tire pressures will help you know...
and the psi of them to played with... consider ~34f-32r, or 36f-34r, or 36f-32r ... since you have a heavier front end with the BB engine, you absolutely want a little more front psi than the rear, not the same f/r.





I'm surprised nobody else wanted to look at the FREE modification before spending all his money trying to shotgun parts on his car.


Change your air pressure. Drive it. Note the changes.

After that is done you can start looking at spending money.

It sounds like you're close to what you want and small changes might get you there.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: feets] #1562525
01/14/14 11:39 PM
01/14/14 11:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Thanks guys!
I actually do have the Moog offset bushings in place. I was able to get a full 5 degrees of Caster, .75 deg NEG camber and 1/8" toe in.
The leafs are MP XHD from Summit racing, both are RH spec. I pulled the 2 short (12" approx) half leafs before installing. They do have some arch. I have HD shackles with urethane bushings. Yes, they squeak even when lubed.
I like the idea of trying different tire pressures first. I was not aware that the front pressure should be higher than the rear. Thats good info. Secondly I have considered going larger with the torsion bars for some time. The engine has aluminum heads and headers so it probably weighs in only slightly heavier than an all iron small block.

Years ago I had a 76 Camaro that handled great. I had a mix of all the best factory Trans Am stuff, solid subframe spacers, IROC steering box...That car handled great and was a blast to drive fast. It rarely understeered. It would remain neutral until I leaned on the throttle and then would drift nicely. I would love to get the same performance from this car. I have easily double the HP in the Charger and far better tires. Money is not nearly as tight as it was when I was a kid in that Camaro.
If I do decide to go with bigger torsion bars, does anyone have any vendors they would recommend?

Last edited by Frankenduster; 01/14/14 11:46 PM.
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562526
01/14/14 11:45 PM
01/14/14 11:45 PM
Joined: May 2003
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amxautox Offline
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More weight in the front than the rear = higher pressure, usually for the same tire size.


Tom

"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."

-Henry David Thoreau

Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths

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Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: amxautox] #1562527
01/14/14 11:48 PM
01/14/14 11:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Quote:

More weight in the front than the rear = higher pressure, usually for the same tire size.




Makes sense.
Since my tire size is different front/rear, Maybe it makes even MORE sense, huh? The rear sidewall is taller than the front by at least an inch.

Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562528
01/17/14 10:24 PM
01/17/14 10:24 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 553
Sac, CA, USA
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ntstlgl1970 Offline
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Sac, CA, USA
I think Firm Feel is the only place that has options for bigger bars, give them a call. I went with the 1.060 bars and I wish I would have gone with the 1.120 or 1.180 instead. I can take you for a ride if you want to see if it is too rough or not....

Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562529
01/18/14 08:10 AM
01/18/14 08:10 AM
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Posts: 2,487
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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Put rubber sway bar bushings on the end links on the rear bar. Then start tightening the bolts till you get enough preload to make the handling neutral.
PS this works...road course tested.

Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: ThermoQuad] #1562530
01/18/14 03:38 PM
01/18/14 03:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Good idea, Tom. I asked about this very thing about a year ago on this very forum. Many thought that using rubber bushings only delayed the oversteer until the car was pushed harder. I got busy chasing my detonation issues and didn't get the chance to compare the handling with the bushings.
I wish those torsion bars were cheaper though!

Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars...... [Re: Kern Dog] #1562531
01/20/14 05:45 PM
01/20/14 05:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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I've tried various combinations of sway bars and end-link bushings (poly vs rubber)... all poly, all rubber, 50/50, etc... to suite my best likings of the setups.. per various competition events... fine tuning is what it does... I typically don't run all poly end-links.... plus, they eventually wear away and crack.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Achieving a neutral balance: Sway bars...... [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1562532
01/20/14 09:00 PM
01/20/14 09:00 PM
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ThermoQuad Offline
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Ok then...there is an outfit making rod end style sway bar links...fits mopar...hmmmmm think about it-the sway bar will be reacting immediately to every suspension move vs having to compress a bushing before moving.

So the shortest length of this style hardware is 4" vs the stock 3" distance on a b body. Well in reality you are splitting thee distance so it's 1/2" longer - but the car knows no difference other than it has more sway bar now - remember these are street cars set up to survive hot laps, not real race cars.

I was going to track test my theory that more bar for better handling is further achieved with a solid link, but I kinda lost interest in trying flog the black n blue Charger. I recommend that that our OP be our test vehicle for the idea.

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