Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
#1562513
01/13/14 01:48 AM
01/13/14 01:48 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
|
OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
I've finally finished with getting the Charger running again. Today I was out burning some fuel and taking some corners. Plenty of fun. The steering response is as sharp as it ever has been. The car stays flat during cornering but I notice that the harder I corner, the more it wants to oversteer. The car is an all steel 70 Charger with a 440/493, a 727 with a GV OD and an 8 3/4 axle. I'm running 1" T bars and a custom 1.25 solid front sway bar. Rear is the XHD leaf springs and a 7/8" Addco sway bar. KYB shocks. Front wheels: 18x9 with 275/40/18 Nitto 555s. Rear is 18x10 with 295/45/18 Nittos. I understand the basics. To reduce oversteer, you need to to either reduce the rear roll stiffness or increase the front. This is where I am unsure as what to do. I could go with a smaller rear sway bar. Awhile back I removed the rear bar and ran without one. The handling was neutral but it had more body roll than I liked. I suppose that 3/4" bars are available, right? The other option is going with higher roll stiffness up front. The 1.25 sway bar I have is a modified bar OEM for a 73-87 GM 1 ton 2WD pickup. I doubt anyone makes a bigger front bar. That leaves bigger Torsion bars. I actually like the ride of the car as is but if a switch to larger torsion bars would help, I might consider it. Trouble is, torsion bars are not cheap! Not that I'm totally hung up on money, but the last I checked, 1.14 bars were over $300! Advice?
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: jcc]
#1562516
01/13/14 10:37 AM
01/13/14 10:37 AM
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723 Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
|
Is this primarily a street car? Will it ever see the track?
If I were you, I would download an app with a g force meter and go test the car in an open parking lot. (trakpal for iPhone is free and works). See what your max cornering is with and without the rear bar attached. Hopefully one overseers and the other under steers, and you can pick a rear bar or new leafs based on that data.
I'm a fan of Hellwig adjustable rear bars. You might need a custom diameter, which they will make for a fee.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar -'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1562518
01/13/14 09:37 PM
01/13/14 09:37 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,137 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
|
Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,137
Irving, TX
|
Perhaps a silly question but have you tried altering the air pressure in the rear tires? Add a bit more air and see how it handles.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: feets]
#1562519
01/13/14 10:22 PM
01/13/14 10:22 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
|
Get the 1.14" bars and a set Fox shocks and IMO you will be suprised beyond belief. The car will roll even less and tighten up at the same time.
Mopar to the bone!!!
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: jcc]
#1562521
01/14/14 12:57 AM
01/14/14 12:57 AM
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723 Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
|
Quote:
Quote:
See what your max cornering is with and without the rear bar attached. Hopefully one overseers and the other under steers,
yes this, I missed his rear bar, sorry, although I would chase nuetral over max
Point in him doing that 'test' would be so he has data to decide what needs to be done and by how much.
If he ran with the rear bar and lost traction in the rear at .8 G, and then without the rear bar and lost traction in the front at .8 G, then I would recommend he reduce his rear roll resistance by half of the current rear bar's roll resistance (you can swap rear bars or rear leafs to get that change).
All to find neutral, of course.
This is a 'free' way to get a better handle on what to change and by how much.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar -'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: PHJ426]
#1562523
01/14/14 01:48 AM
01/14/14 01:48 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
|
The data sheet is excellent.. all of us should have such data so we know our cars better.. like "blueprinting" our car's specs, etc. Tire pressures will help you know, and collect more data, on the car's charachteristics. Any TB larger that the 1.0 will show progressively both less dive and lift, as well as less leaning. My suggestion.. at least the 1.1.. but you will NOT regret a 1.12, 1.14, 1.18 (FF) for street driving, even considering your short sidewall tires.. and the psi of them to played with... consider ~34f-32r, or 36f-34r, or 36f-32r ... since you have a heavier front end with the BB engine, you absolutely want a little more front psi than the rear, not the same f/r. AND... watch out for pot holes with those short sidewall tires. DON'T BE AFRAID OF ANY "HARSH RIDE" WITH THESE SUGGESTED LARGER TBS.. YOU WON'T REGRET IT! (I'm sure you know that I have 1.24 TBs, 225/5 rear leafs.. on my Challenger... and drive on the street/hwy... NOT harsh.. but yes, stiff and barable/drivable... I love it.. and its always ready for competition as well... just a matter of which rims/tires I choose to run that day.) Rear leafs... you say you have XHD.. what are they?? what brand? Who's are they? Specs? pounds/inch? Remaining arch when compressed at rest? Flatter is better.. and if you carry stuff/passengers, etc in the trunk, take that into consideration. TOO Stiff in the rear and you Will notice it more than the stiffer front TBs. Shocks... Many newer/better shocks than KYBs... I personally favor having fully adustables (I have Konis), such as QA1 dbl-adjustables, so that YOU can fine-tune the ride to YOUR exact car and the way ITs setup. However, the QA1 2x (and other similar same type) are pretty expensive, but you wouldn't regret it either (if you can overlook the expense... ~$1200-1500 for 4?). Sway bars... the 1.25 front is good; the rear could be at least .875 or 1.0" (I have 1.25"f/1.0"r)... just learn how to drive the car and set yourself up properly for turns/curves, braking, accelerating, etc.... it won't come overnight. Consider getting a better lateral-support driver's seat... and a smaller steering wheel (unless you've done those already). Also, the upper control arms from the factory need to be changed (Hotchkis, FF, etc), or at least the Moog offset uca bushings installed... to get more caster/camber.... and be sure the toe is set ~1/16"IN for street/hwy, or zero. I used to own a daily driver 70 500 Charger (drunk driver totaled it in front of my house!)... your car is beautiful!
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: feets]
#1562525
01/14/14 11:39 PM
01/14/14 11:39 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
|
OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Thanks guys! I actually do have the Moog offset bushings in place. I was able to get a full 5 degrees of Caster, .75 deg NEG camber and 1/8" toe in. The leafs are MP XHD from Summit racing, both are RH spec. I pulled the 2 short (12" approx) half leafs before installing. They do have some arch. I have HD shackles with urethane bushings. Yes, they squeak even when lubed. I like the idea of trying different tire pressures first. I was not aware that the front pressure should be higher than the rear. Thats good info. Secondly I have considered going larger with the torsion bars for some time. The engine has aluminum heads and headers so it probably weighs in only slightly heavier than an all iron small block. Years ago I had a 76 Camaro that handled great. I had a mix of all the best factory Trans Am stuff, solid subframe spacers, IROC steering box...That car handled great and was a blast to drive fast. It rarely understeered. It would remain neutral until I leaned on the throttle and then would drift nicely. I would love to get the same performance from this car. I have easily double the HP in the Charger and far better tires. Money is not nearly as tight as it was when I was a kid in that Camaro. If I do decide to go with bigger torsion bars, does anyone have any vendors they would recommend?
Last edited by Frankenduster; 01/14/14 11:46 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1562526
01/14/14 11:45 PM
01/14/14 11:45 PM
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,666 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
|
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,666
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
|
More weight in the front than the rear = higher pressure, usually for the same tire size.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: amxautox]
#1562527
01/14/14 11:48 PM
01/14/14 11:48 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
|
OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
More weight in the front than the rear = higher pressure, usually for the same tire size.
Makes sense. Since my tire size is different front/rear, Maybe it makes even MORE sense, huh? The rear sidewall is taller than the front by at least an inch.
|
|
|
Re: Achieving a neutral balance: T bars & Sway bars......
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1562531
01/20/14 05:45 PM
01/20/14 05:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
|
I've tried various combinations of sway bars and end-link bushings (poly vs rubber)... all poly, all rubber, 50/50, etc... to suite my best likings of the setups.. per various competition events... fine tuning is what it does... I typically don't run all poly end-links.... plus, they eventually wear away and crack.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
|
|
|
|
|