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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: pushbutton]
#1549607
12/22/13 01:03 PM
12/22/13 01:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
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The good 5.9 Magnum manifolds, compared to short headers, cheap long tube headers, and race headers on a very mild street 360.
Yep, no gain at all. LOL!!!
Keith
Last edited by Dunnuck Racing; 12/27/13 01:38 PM.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: bambi]
#1549608
12/22/13 04:20 PM
12/22/13 04:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 304
Portland, Oregon
Digger73
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 304
Portland, Oregon
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Yep, last time I was at a national event, I was so shocked to see all the pro stock cars with factory HP exhaust manifolds. As soon as I got back home I removed all the headers off of all my cars and installed stock manifolds!
Digger73
I live with fear everyday but, sometimes she lets me race!
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Digger73]
#1549609
12/23/13 10:18 PM
12/23/13 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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To those that think manifolds perform even in the same ballpark with a decent set of full length headers: You're wrong. No other way to say it. The dyno sheet above says about 20 hp & 25 lb-ft.; and thats on a motor that looks like its only making 320 hp. Immagine what the falloff is on a motor flowing enouth to make 500. I'm guessing its in the range of 40 horses. Any race car you see that runs manifolds does so either because: A) class rules. or B) They like the look and are willing to deal with the lost performance. On most any typical carbureted V8, exhaust manifolds are the single biggest performance bottleneck in the equation. If you don't like headers because you're experience is that they all leak and create problems; you likely aren't much of a Hot Rodder. A good set of headers properly installed (yes, it may take more than just bolting them on...) should not leak a bit. If you're having issues with burning plug wires: address the issues! its called Hot-Rodding, and it may take some ingenuity (thats the FUN part!).  Now, if you want to run exhaust manifolds and get the max performance out of a stock package (Pure Stock & F.A.S.T. guys are great at this), then thats another conversation all together. But to say that manifolds perform on par with a good set of headers is just plain Mis-informed. (and yes, I'll include the vaunted HP manifolds in that statement) 
Last edited by StealthWedge67; 12/24/13 03:33 AM.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#1549610
12/24/13 11:19 AM
12/24/13 11:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
To those that think manifolds perform even in the same ballpark with a decent set of full length headers: You're wrong. No other way to say it. The dyno sheet above says about 20 hp & 25 lb-ft.; and thats on a motor that looks like its only making 320 hp. Immagine what the falloff is on a motor flowing enouth to make 500. I'm guessing its in the range of 40 horses.
Any race car you see that runs manifolds does so either because: A) class rules. or B) They like the look and are willing to deal with the lost performance. On most any typical carbureted V8, exhaust manifolds are the single biggest performance bottleneck in the equation.
If you don't like headers because you're experience is that they all leak and create problems; you likely aren't much of a Hot Rodder. A good set of headers properly installed (yes, it may take more than just bolting them on...) should not leak a bit. If you're having issues with burning plug wires: address the issues! its called Hot-Rodding, and it may take some ingenuity (thats the FUN part!).
Now, if you want to run exhaust manifolds and get the max performance out of a stock package (Pure Stock & F.A.S.T. guys are great at this), then thats another conversation all together. But to say that manifolds perform on par with a good set of headers is just plain Mis-informed. (and yes, I'll include the vaunted HP manifolds in that statement)
 Those cheap Summit headers went in pretty easy, Pass side was cake, drivers side took some time. Most people that don't like headers or have had them leak don't take the time to install them right or they crank the snot out of the bolts. On those Summits (and Hedmans) you can use all but one manifold stud. I have used pretty much every cheap header there is, all in b-bodys most w/ PS and haven't had an issue. They took this car to 11.38 @ 118.4 I have since upgraded to hooker super comps (a BREEEZE to install) and picked up 1.5mph. Doubt the car would run close to that w/ logs. FAST cars are a different animal and trust me if they could run headers they would. The difference in HP from a stock motor w/ vs w/o headers might be slight, but start adding compression, cam, intake and carburation and the header motor starts to really pull away.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: bambi]
#1549612
12/24/13 07:31 PM
12/24/13 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,164
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,164
CT
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Quote:
Factory manifolds are almost as good as headers, with out all the hassles. WHAT on Gods GREEN EARTH makes you want to swap them out for HEADERS? Are you crazy?
This is completely wrong
As far as what works, I have a set of Hooker Competition (1 7/8) that fit my '67 with P/S and column shift.
The summit headers, like the ones Mr. Yuck has, I'm pretty sure are just Hedmans in a different box. I would expect to have to make dings for spark plugs in any of these, my Hookers needed a few dings but nothing excessive. They're around 250 though. IMO theres nothing wrong with cheap headers, I'd rather be annoyed a bit and save 500 bucks.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 12/24/13 07:36 PM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1549613
12/24/13 10:34 PM
12/24/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259
Khemi, Stygia
Mebsuta
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259
Khemi, Stygia
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I think I will use the Summits headers when my old mystery headers finally quit.
All the other headers are retarded. They either cost too much, need a mini starter, don't work with a 4 spd or something dumb like that.
68 Roadrunner. 383 4-spd. Beat up.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: johnfin]
#1549614
12/25/13 12:30 AM
12/25/13 12:30 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 304
Portland, Oregon
Digger73
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 304
Portland, Oregon
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I have a set of cheap summit headers that I ran in my 65 Satellite with power steering that worked just fine. When I installed the 440, I put a 1970 B-body K member in the car. I am told that this moves the engine back two inches. The headers still fit with no issues. I have no problem running cheap headers if that is all you can afford or don’t want to pay the big bucks for a name brand, I say go for it. The gains of a long tube header is worth it over the stock manifolds. IMHO. Merry Christmas to one and all, Digger73 
I live with fear everyday but, sometimes she lets me race!
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Supercuda]
#1549617
12/26/13 04:01 PM
12/26/13 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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Quote:
Just remember all these fancy Hemi's today still have manifolds. For the price they are the best option.
Only Since they're already on the car.... Try to buy a pair through Chrysler, I'm willing to guess using this same "for the price" logic, they'd quickly become the worst option. To use this logic, then the best option is always just use whatever is already on the car. This sorta flies in the face of what we like to do, doesn't it??
Cheap and good don't normally fit together. In the case of headers, the Summit brand are fairly nice pieces and are about as cheap as you're gonna get away. BUT, they are only 1-3/4" dia, and fitment can be an issue in some cases (I have a $159 wall ornament set in my garage to attest to this). The reality that a set of Hooker Comp's are a nicer piece of hardware, are 1-7/8", and fit most anything with little or no hassle at only a hundred dollars more. If $100 is where you draw the line with your hot-rod..... Well, you're probably not going to have much of a hot-rod.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: bambi]
#1549618
12/26/13 04:13 PM
12/26/13 04:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
I looked at sites like Jegs and Summit, they had a few from 139 to 175 so I just piked around 165. Only problem is they wont work with power steering. I have some HP cast exhaust manifolds but dont really want to use them.
You are joking, right? WHY? What the hell do you expect to increase? Per dollar wise, Head aches, fitment issues, burnt plug wires, exhaust leaks, starter fitment issues/burn out. SERIOUSLY? What the hell do you expect to increase? What is your primary goal? Do you realize that headers actuall only increase HP by maybe ten or fifteen over stock? and THAT does not include Factory HP manifolds? Factory manifolds are almost as good as headers, with out all the hassles. WHAT on Gods GREEN EARTH makes you want to swap them out for HEADERS? Are you crazy? Seriously. You will never ever ever see any increase on a street motor. You will invite yourself open to a host of problems with headers. WHY? Why would anyone make this boneheaded move? If you want noise, get some Flowmaster Mufflers and be done with it. You can't possibly be serious. READ UP ON IT.
Every car I installed headers on ran way better and sounded way better. It's how I learned to tune carbs, because headers always made the motors run leaner. I would add some jet the motor would really come alive.
I know I put headers on at least 6 cars for a couple buddies over the years plus my own cars.
I always thought stock manifolds were for weanies.
My 74 challenger has had headers on it since 1978 when I installed them for a friend before the car was mine. Now it has had TTI headers on it since 1989 and they still don't leak and have never burned a spark plug wire.
Now there are some cheap headers that will make your life miserable if your not familer with there short comings.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Dunnuck Racing]
#1549620
12/26/13 05:40 PM
12/26/13 05:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
The modern Hemi engine uses a manifold that is a close copy of a shorty header. And it will outflow an old log style manifold by a lot. And every header manufacturer still sells a bunch of headers for them and have proven gains. Any header design that offers a performance increase will help make an engine more efficient, which gives more power AND fuel economy. Maybe adding 10 horsepower on a low performance engine that only puts out 230 horsepower doesn't mean much to some people, but increased efficiency should .
Keith
At what cost though?
$750 for a set of TTI's to add 10 hp seems stupid to me, as an example.
$159 for a set of Summit headers that embody all the worst qualities of a header again seems stupid to me, especially if the gains are minimal.
It's all a balance. If I were to put a 5.7 Hemi in place of the 273 in my Cuda I would bet the improvement, even with manifolds, would be substantially more than putting the best headers ever made on that 273.
If I were to build that 5.7L up to the point of maximum performance then a set of $750 headers makes sense, for an otherwise stock 5.7, no.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Supercuda]
#1549621
12/26/13 06:24 PM
12/26/13 06:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
The modern Hemi engine uses a manifold that is a close copy of a shorty header. And it will outflow an old log style manifold by a lot. And every header manufacturer still sells a bunch of headers for them and have proven gains. Any header design that offers a performance increase will help make an engine more efficient, which gives more power AND fuel economy. Maybe adding 10 horsepower on a low performance engine that only puts out 230 horsepower doesn't mean much to some people, but increased efficiency should .
Keith
At what cost though?
$750 for a set of TTI's to add 10 hp seems stupid to me, as an example.
$159 for a set of Summit headers that embody all the worst qualities of a header again seems stupid to me, especially if the gains are minimal.
It's all a balance. If I were to put a 5.7 Hemi in place of the 273 in my Cuda I would bet the improvement, even with manifolds, would be substantially more than putting the best headers ever made on that 273.
If I were to build that 5.7L up to the point of maximum performance then a set of $750 headers makes sense, for an otherwise stock 5.7, no.
Headers add more than 10 HP on most motors, especially old motors. Then there is the beautiful music they produce.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: dogdays]
#1549623
12/26/13 11:52 PM
12/26/13 11:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,693
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,693
Wichita
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A friend of mine paid big $$$ for his headers. He brought a friend by to look at my car one day and commented on how well the headers fit, looked and sounded. When I told him they were $159.00 Hedmans he about crapped himself. Then I told him how easy they were to install (with studs no less) and that they required NO clearancing anywhere and he was sold. Ive been told that this part # 78030 even works well for RB blocks in an A-body but never personally tried them.
Last edited by GY3; 12/26/13 11:54 PM.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Supercuda]
#1549624
12/27/13 12:12 AM
12/27/13 12:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
The modern Hemi engine uses a manifold that is a close copy of a shorty header. And it will outflow an old log style manifold by a lot. And every header manufacturer still sells a bunch of headers for them and have proven gains. Any header design that offers a performance increase will help make an engine more efficient, which gives more power AND fuel economy. Maybe adding 10 horsepower on a low performance engine that only puts out 230 horsepower doesn't mean much to some people, but increased efficiency should .
Keith
At what cost though?
$750 for a set of TTI's to add 10 hp seems stupid to me, as an example.
$159 for a set of Summit headers that embody all the worst qualities of a header again seems stupid to me, especially if the gains are minimal.
It's all a balance. If I were to put a 5.7 Hemi in place of the 273 in my Cuda I would bet the improvement, even with manifolds, would be substantially more than putting the best headers ever made on that 273.
If I were to build that 5.7L up to the point of maximum performance then a set of $750 headers makes sense, for an otherwise stock 5.7, no.
I think you missed the point, that's 10hp on a 230 horse motor. Add a set to a 450hp motor...500hp motor. The more motor you have the better the gain. I'd never pay $750 for headers, unless somebody wants to make me a set for a BB twin turbo, but bang for the buck, it's a no-brainer.
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Supercuda]
#1549625
12/27/13 12:23 AM
12/27/13 12:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
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Now we're comparing header gains to an engine swap that uses current technology. I bet you dont find a modern hemi with computer,harness and all necessary pieces for the swap for anywhere near the cost of TTI headers. For what it would cost to do all the swapping, I could build a nice engine that would perform better with headers. Besides the O P asked about cheap headers, not TTI. Headers are a proven provider of milage and performance gains. Feel free to not use them. Its a free world. A lot of guys dont like to improve their cars and think a carburetor designed for 70's fuels should run good today and points ignition worked fine 40 years ago. Then there are people that dont believe in electricity either  Keith
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Re: Cheap Headers
[Re: Dunnuck Racing]
#1549626
12/27/13 01:15 AM
12/27/13 01:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,255
Canada
WO23Coronet
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,255
Canada
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Quote:
The modern Hemi engine uses a manifold that is a close copy of a shorty header. And it will outflow an old log style manifold by a lot. And every header manufacturer still sells a bunch of headers for them and have proven gains. Any header design that offers a performance increase will help make an engine more efficient, which gives more power AND fuel economy. Maybe adding 10 horsepower on a low performance engine that only puts out 230 horsepower doesn't mean much to some people, but increased efficiency should .
Keith
Just to clarify, the 6.1/6.4 manifold is a full on shorty header, the factory 5.7 manifolds are horrendous log manifolds that don't even deserve to be boat anchors.
Dulcich did a test on a healthy 440 for Mopar Muscle awhile back and the results are as predicted, 56HP for the shorties over manifolds, 70 for long tubes
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0106_manifolds_vs_headers/dyno_numbers.html
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