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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: Dragula]
#1533571
11/15/13 03:43 PM
11/15/13 03:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
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Coram, NY
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Quote:
Pump goes in the tank....
that set up is the deep end of the pool and I'm still in the dressing room putting on my swimmies lol 
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: Pool Fixer]
#1533572
11/15/13 09:08 PM
11/15/13 09:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,289
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Custom tanks with internal pumps are one way to do it. I found it more expensive, and most all the available tanks I've seen here and for sale on-line still won't perform well on a road course or even with spirited street driving with less than a 1/2 tank of fuel.
A better performing, generally less expensive system is a surge tank system. I went that route on my 1968 5.9 EFI conversion. I can run hard on the street or at Willow Springs until I get down to 1 1/2 gallons, at which point I fuel up again because I don't want to walk home. All that with a stock, unbaffled tank, a low and high pressure fuel pump and a surge tank.
Also, I used smaller fuel pumps and multiple fuel filters/water traps, so my current system is limited to about 450 hp. I ran 3/8ths feed and return lines and would have to use higher flow fuel filters and higher volume fuel pumps to go above that. The surge tank configuration that I'm using is limited to about 1300 hp with the right pumps etc.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: jbc426]
#1533574
11/15/13 10:27 PM
11/15/13 10:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
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Quote:
The main difference from this diagram and the surge tank set-up I went with, is that the EFI pump is actually inside the surge tank at the front of the car.
AND, from the surge tank back, it's essentially the same fuel system a lot of guys are already running with their carbureted systems. It's just a return-line fuel system with a low pressure electric pump pushing the fuel to the surge tank in the front of the car. It's simple to install, extremely effective and reasonably priced.
ive researched it alot and i saw some other posts that you made and your setup is intriguing. ive seen that concept done a little differently using a large fuel filter for a "swirl pot" or "fuel accumulator"
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: Stanton]
#1533576
11/15/13 10:36 PM
11/15/13 10:36 PM
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Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
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Since pressure is relative to volume it seems to me that the high pressure pump in the surge tank would easily empty the tank before the low pressure pump could fill it up - particularly at high rpm.
thats one way to look at it. but....if your current setup fuels the motor properly, then efi shouldnt use any more fuel to make the same power. efi just requires the same amount fuel to be delvered differently....like an open ended garden hose vs same hose with a nozzle. same amount of water different pressure. how many times have we all unscrewed the nozzle to fill up the car wash bucket faster?
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: Pool Fixer]
#1533578
11/15/13 10:55 PM
11/15/13 10:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,289
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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Quote:
Quote:
The main difference from this diagram and the surge tank set-up I went with, is that the EFI pump is actually inside the surge tank at the front of the car.
AND, from the surge tank back, it's essentially the same fuel system a lot of guys are already running with their carbureted systems. It's just a return-line fuel system with a low pressure electric pump pushing the fuel to the surge tank in the front of the car. It's simple to install, extremely effective and reasonably priced.
ive researched it alot and i saw some other posts that you made and your setup is intriguing. ive seen that concept done a little differently using a large fuel filter for a "swirl pot" or "fuel accumulator"
Thanks, I studied both the tank modification route and this surge tank system route. After seeing what the "Tuner" guys were doing, I followed their lead. Their modern EFI cars come with pretty well designed fuel tanks with build in pumps, yet they still find them lacking and add surge tanks to enhance their fuel systems ability to provide an un-interrupted flow of fuel during hard driving.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: jbc426]
#1533579
11/15/13 11:03 PM
11/15/13 11:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,289
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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West Coast, USA
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The ideal system would use both a well-designed fully baffled tank with trap doors, modern road race style-multi point pick-ups and good filters and pumps all plumbed in a full-flow surge tank set-up with bypass regulator. For what it's worth, these guys are at the leading edge of surge tank design and use. http://www.radiumauto.com/Using these types of products to retrofit older cars with modern EFI is worth some serious consideration given the cost and moderate performance of a custom fuel tank EFI system.
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: davenc]
#1533581
11/15/13 11:19 PM
11/15/13 11:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
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Quote:
....Do you have any concerns about having 0.5-1 gallon of fuel sitting right by the front fender?
no more than i have with 200 lbs of half blind imbecile (me) sitting over the drivers floor lol
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: davenc]
#1533583
11/15/13 11:28 PM
11/15/13 11:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,289
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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West Coast, USA
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Quote:
A surge tank makes a lot of sense to me, but one thing I wonder about is safety. The most logical place for the surge tank is right around the core support, which is pretty vulnerable in the even of a collision. I know the tank in the rear is vulnerable as well, but the OEM spent years study the safety aspects and have minimized a lot of risks.
Do you have any concerns about having 0.5-1 gallon of fuel sitting right by the front fender?
Fire is always a concern in a crash. The volume of these tanks when loaded with pumps is actually closer to a quart to a quart-and-a-half, and these surge tanks are pretty tough, a lot tougher than a sheet metal fuel tank for instance. Proper fuel line routing and components, low oil pressure shutoff switches and thoughtful electrical wiring are more areas to be concerned about.
So, do I worry about having this tank up front. I would worry more about having high pressure fuel lines plumbed from an aluminum tank running all the way up to the front of my car and back.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: EFI in tank pump question
[Re: Jerry]
#1533587
11/16/13 12:42 PM
11/16/13 12:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,924
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,924
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Since pressure is relative to volume it seems to me that the high pressure pump in the surge tank would easily empty the tank before the low pressure pump could fill it up - particularly at high rpm.
thats one way to look at it. but....if your current setup fuels the motor properly, then efi shouldnt use any more fuel to make the same power. efi just requires the same amount fuel to be delvered differently....like an open ended garden hose vs same hose with a nozzle. same amount of water different pressure. how many times have we all unscrewed the nozzle to fill up the car wash bucket faster?
Thanks for the explanation. Makes perfect sense.
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