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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511239
12/16/13 04:21 PM
12/16/13 04:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,192
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,192
CT
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Wow, I feel bad for having got your hopes up, I just looked and couldn't find them either, but I swear to you they had them right before Thanksgiving because I was thinking about picking one up after reading about your issues. I guess its too late now! They said "In stock" and ready to ship "today" also.
Sorryy!
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1511240
12/16/13 04:25 PM
12/16/13 04:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,636
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,636
Las Vegas
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I did not read all of this but will ask a simple question. have you tried a new coil? I have had two coils show similar issues at higher RPM, both from MSD.
Having said that here are some universal truths about MSD.
One, they have NEVER had a bad ignition box. Trust me I do not know of ANYONE who has ever sent one back and had them say it was an issue in the box
Two, Just because it is new does not mean it is GOOD. There is a difference. The digital boxes seem to have more issues than the old school ones.
Three, If you send in your old box they will send it back saying it checked fine but usually the issues you had will go away. Never understood this logic on their part but seems to be universally true. We have sen tthree back over the years with issues. All came back with no issue found and all worked great when they came back.
Fourth, They are very suseptible to RF interference. Factory tacks, electri water pumps, electric fans, alternator wiring or any other high current wiring will wreak havoc on MSD boxes.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1511241
12/16/13 04:40 PM
12/16/13 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
I did not read all of this but will ask a simple question. have you tried a new coil? I have had two coils show similar issues at higher RPM, both from MSD.
Having said that here are some universal truths about MSD.
One, they have NEVER had a bad ignition box. Trust me I do not know of ANYONE who has ever sent one back and had them say it was an issue in the box
Two, Just because it is new does not mean it is GOOD. There is a difference. The digital boxes seem to have more issues than the old school ones.
Three, If you send in your old box they will send it back saying it checked fine but usually the issues you had will go away. Never understood this logic on their part but seems to be universally true. We have sen tthree back over the years with issues. All came back with no issue found and all worked great when they came back.
Fourth, They are very suseptible to RF interference. Factory tacks, electri water pumps, electric fans, alternator wiring or any other high current wiring will wreak havoc on MSD boxes.
all of what you are saying here regarding dealing with them i have experienced. my first two boxes would run fine for about 60 seconds or so, then cough, stumble and die. fire it up again, and exactly the same behavior. nothing wrong with the box.
yes, i have tried 3 coils so far.
i have an analog box, and there were two symptoms: one was varying rpm at specific speeds, and the other was what seemed like a rev limiter issue. so i decided to go for a new box, having heard nothing about all these issues.
with the resistor plugs having seemingly solved the breaking up and missing issue, i'm going to put my old analog box back in and see what it does.
right now, it runs great, i'm just worried about that 7100 limit the box is set at now...
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: BJS racing]
#1511243
12/16/13 07:30 PM
12/16/13 07:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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this is really a tough issue. i have a hard time believing that the problem is not specific to my setup, but the symptoms are just too weird.
if you look at the beginning of this post, i have done everything i (and everyone around me) can think of, except two things: 1) i haven't disconnected the tach, and 2) i haven't tried different plug wires. that doesn't mean i haven't missed something, but so far it is all i can think of.
in the end, the real issue i have is this. that box is not rocket science. when you look at what that box does compared to a smartphone, we are talking many orders of magnitude more complexity. in today's world of micro electronics and circuitry, that box is pretty damn simple. doesn't mean they haven't put a lot of research and testing into it to make it what it is, but again, comparatively, this is simple stuff.
that it should be so sensitive to all this stuff is really a travesty.
i have a friend who put a digital 6al on a new build, runs fine. more or less the same setup as mine: stockish 69 car, wired the same way, etc… so what is so different about my setup?
could be the wires or the tach, but who knows. again, the question is why is something so seemingly simple this difficult to diagnose and fix?
ok, off the soap box.
now just on to doing what i have to do to make this thing work.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511244
12/16/13 07:52 PM
12/16/13 07:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,224
Arlington, Tx.
BJS racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,224
Arlington, Tx.
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What do you have the ground on the MSD hooked to? That has been one of the biggest problems I have run across. If you turn the rev limiter off does it give you any trouble? I have also had trouble when (with a stock dist.) if you wire it backwards giving timing issues. Are the pick up wires from the box (purple and green) running near plug wires or the coil wiring? On some of the MSD systems there is a purple and green and there is a blus and green. Does yours have both? If so make sure its hooked to the right ones! Ask me how I figured that one out!
Back in the swing of things at Painless again! Great to be back!
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: BJS racing]
#1511245
12/16/13 08:00 PM
12/16/13 08:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
What do you have the ground on the MSD hooked to? That has been one of the biggest problems I have run across. If you turn the rev limiter off does it give you any trouble? I have also had trouble when (with a stock dist.) if you wire it backwards giving timing issues. Are the pick up wires from the box (purple and green) running near plug wires or the coil wiring? On some of the MSD systems there is a purple and green and there is a blus and green. Does yours have both? If so make sure its hooked to the right ones! Ask me how I figured that one out!
a short answer to your question is that we took an entirely new wiring harness, and eliminated every wire existing on the car that is involved in the ignition system. we connected the positive and negative straight to the battery, we ran all the wires way clear of every other wire on the car, and it didn't make any difference at all.
the purple and green are connected correctly, verified that many times.
if i set the rev limiter way high, then it runs fine, but i have no rev limiter.
so far, it seems that the missing and breaking up has been solved with resistor plugs. now i have the issue that the rev limiter is set at 7100 and it limits at 6100.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511246
12/17/13 01:38 AM
12/17/13 01:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
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Have you tried what I suggested? Quote:
There are many having ignition issues with the digital ignition boxes and from what I'm hearing they are caused from bad ground and the solution is pretty simple run a wire from the back of one head to the other and them to the negative side of the coil. This grounds the ignition system and Is fixing most of the issues people are having with the digital boxes.
Wade Metzinger 918-809-0987 71 Cuda 9.28@145 -1s, Pglide 68 Cuda 10.64@124 1.45 60's 318->390 eddys Moparts discount code on WIX - moparts www.Filter1.com
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511247
12/17/13 01:47 AM
12/17/13 01:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 190
Winterpeg, Canada
hvyweight
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 190
Winterpeg, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
i kinda read through the replies. Did you try to remove the tach out of the senario?
i have seen tachs cause these issues.
Mike
no, haven't disconnected the tach. someone else brought this up, but this seems like a bit of a conundrum. if i don't have a tach, how do i know where it is cutting out?
it seems, so far, that the resistor plugs may have solved the breaking up issue, but i still have the rev limiter issue.
Find a timing light with rpm! Install a lower chip say 3000 rpm and bring it up to 3000 and see if the limiter cuts in.
if it works, then road test it with a higher chip.
just dont hit any big revs with no load on the motor!
good luck!
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511248
12/17/13 10:29 AM
12/17/13 10:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,224
Arlington, Tx.
BJS racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,224
Arlington, Tx.
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Adjust the cyl. select to 4 cyl and then back to 8 and also make sure that there is no timing being pulled out for what ever reason. To bad its not a 7al3 box. I've screwed up installing more of them than the guys a scumitt even see go through the doors. Its always the same thing too! You would think I would remember that by now.
Back in the swing of things at Painless again! Great to be back!
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: WadeMetzinger]
#1511249
12/17/13 05:17 PM
12/17/13 05:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Have you tried what I suggested?
Quote:
There are many having ignition issues with the digital ignition boxes and from what I'm hearing they are caused from bad ground and the solution is pretty simple run a wire from the back of one head to the other and them to the negative side of the coil. This grounds the ignition system and Is fixing most of the issues people are having with the digital boxes.
no, i haven't. hard to keep up with all the suggestions and everything.
i'll give this a try when i get a chance.
honestly though, first step is to put my old box back in, and see how it behaves with the difference the resistor plugs are appearing to make. if it runs well, and limits where it should, i'm calling it done, and the digital is going into the trunk as a spare.
if things don't go well, i'll move on to this step.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: hvyweight]
#1511250
12/17/13 05:19 PM
12/17/13 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
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Quote:
Find a timing light with rpm! Install a lower chip say 3000 rpm and bring it up to 3000 and see if the limiter cuts in.
if it works, then road test it with a higher chip.
just dont hit any big revs with no load on the motor!
good luck!
that makes sense. funny, but easier said than done. after my last attempt, the only guy i found with a timing light/tach is about 15 miles from me. but will play with this one as well if the old box doesn't do it.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511251
12/18/13 01:55 AM
12/18/13 01:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,132
Cleveland
sunroofgtx
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,132
Cleveland
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If you like, we sell a very high quality ignition box. I'll send it and only pay us if it fixes the problem. it wires the same as the MSD, but more racer friendly setting the rev limiter and 4-6-8 dial. Call me if interested.
Join the quickest team in motorsports. Team FireCore. CustomWiresets.com
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1511253
12/23/13 12:34 AM
12/23/13 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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ok, so, on we go!
since the resistor plugs seem to have cured the breaking up issue, i decided to see if that was the issue affecting the analog box, and put it back in. i put a 6600 chip in the rev limiter, and it ran fine, all the way up to about 5400 rpm, where it rev limited.
so now i have two boxes that seem to be limiting 1000 rpm shy of where they are set, so all of a sudden the thought came to me that maybe my tach is off, (yes, i did test it before). how could both boxes be doing basically the same thing?
so i went back to the shop that has the sun timing light with the built in tach, and my tach showed 5k within a couple hundred rpm or less of what his sun tach was showing.
unfortunately, i had the analog and not the digital box in, as that would have been a great test to unplug my tach, set the rev limiter back down to something reasonable, and see where if it stopped at that point.
but i'm also done with this. i talked with rick on friday, and i'm calling him tomorrow morning and having him send a box out to me.
i'll report back when i have it installed.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511254
12/23/13 12:53 AM
12/23/13 12:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,192
CT
GTX MATT
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,192
CT
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Do you have an aftermarket tach? Or the stock one with whatever set up is needed to work with MSD? I'm not certain the Sun timing light with tach would be so accurate, is it new or old? Some "trick" timing lights don't work well with MSD type ignitions. But it could very well be reading correctly. Hopefully you'll be set with Rick's stuff. 
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1511255
12/23/13 03:16 PM
12/23/13 03:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
Do you have an aftermarket tach? Or the stock one with whatever set up is needed to work with MSD?
I'm not certain the Sun timing light with tach would be so accurate, is it new or old? Some "trick" timing lights don't work well with MSD type ignitions. But it could very well be reading correctly.
Hopefully you'll be set with Rick's stuff.
tach is from charger specialties. made sure it was set up for msd, and he said it is. can only go by that.
the sun tach was from the shop where i dyno'd the engine. he has an msd box on his dyno, he knows his stuff.
so yes, on to rick's box...
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511256
01/17/14 06:39 PM
01/17/14 06:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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funny, but not even sure i want to post, but here i go anyway.
i know some people have dealt with a hell of a lot more than this tracking down a problem, but i'm kind of at the end of my rope. i'm ready to throw a dual point distributor in the car and call it done.
so i got the box from rick at fire core. nice box: same footprint and wiring harness as the MSD box, just plug it in.
which i did. set the rev limiter at 6300, and the engine stopped at about 5600. was so despondent i just took the car home and put it in the garage, didn't even bother to mess with anything else.
recent updates were: resistor plugs have stopped the missing and breaking up, but it rev limits well below what is set on the box, with the MSD digital, the MSD analog, and now the FireCore box. MSD box is set at 7100 and it limits at 6100.
i did put an external tach on the car, and with no load was only 1-200 rpm different at 5000 rpm. maybe i should have gone to 6000, and maybe i need a different tach hooked up in the car.
as i said, i'm at wits end, and don't know where else to go. rick has offered to send me a distributor, so i may as well try that.
any thoughts are appreciated, but please look back through the thread, especially the first post. i've done SO MUCH with this so far, hard to imagine what it could be that is causing this issue.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511257
01/17/14 06:50 PM
01/17/14 06:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,192
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,192
CT
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I would put a reliable tach in the car to watch. The only other issue I could think of might be a rotor phasing issue or an issue with the pickup in the distributor.
You don't have solid core plug wires too, do you?
Last edited by GTX MATT; 01/17/14 06:52 PM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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but some how I must be different. I sent one back for someone and was actually told that the box was bad. I knew it was. I tested it before I sent it back. I also know the guy that owned it killed it welding on his car with it hooked up. But that is the only one I have ever heard of being bad.
