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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1511258
01/17/14 06:56 PM
01/17/14 06:56 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
I would put a reliable tach in the car to watch. The only other issue I could think of might be a rotor phasing issue or an issue with the pickup in the distributor.
You don't have solid core plug wires too, do you?
i have tried two different distributors, same issue. doesn't mean both of them aren't whacked, you never know.
firecore wires, not solid core.
and yes, i'll search for a good tach to put in the car for testing...
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511259
01/17/14 07:06 PM
01/17/14 07:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
dakotawilly
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
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doesn't msd have a travelling circus attending the bigger shows or races?you may want to look into that and let your brain rest before theres dynamite involved....
SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: dakotawilly]
#1511260
01/17/14 08:46 PM
01/17/14 08:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
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Quote:
doesn't msd have a travelling circus attending the bigger shows or races?you may want to look into that and let your brain rest before theres dynamite involved....
1st point is interesting, second is probably the soundest advice i've had on this in a while!
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511262
01/17/14 10:23 PM
01/17/14 10:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,166
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,166
Left Coast
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Quote:
Quote:
I would put a reliable tach in the car to watch. The only other issue I could think of might be a rotor phasing issue or an issue with the pickup in the distributor.
You don't have solid core plug wires too, do you?
i have tried two different distributors, same issue. doesn't mean both of them aren't whacked, you never know.
firecore wires, not solid core.
and yes, i'll search for a good tach to put in the car for testing...
Not a big fan of Firecores. Have you tried another set? I use MSD wires for everything I own. The rotor may be out of phase. You have to check this and don't assume just because you have had two distributors that it can't be that. Drill a hole at number one and scribe a line that bisects the rotor then aim the timing light into the hole and rev it to 6000 RPM or whatever the highest rpm it will go up to 6000. Where is the line? It should be aimed at number one. What is your total timing set at? Do you have a degree'd damper so you can check this?
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: SCATPK]
#1511263
03/17/14 04:18 PM
03/17/14 04:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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so, the latest. i have been doing many other things, (like life…), as well as on the car, but here is the latest. i disconnected the tach not far from the MSD box, so the wire was still connected at the tach in the dash, and running from there all the way through the engine compartment to where it was disconnected not far from the box. there was no change in the behavior of the engine, but i noticed that the tach was jumping up to around 1000 rpm as i was driving! i then tried to reach under the dash and disconnect the wire at the tach, and with my fingers inadvertently made a connection between the power to the tach and the input from the MSD box. the tach immediately jumped to 3000 rpm, and from there followed the rpm of the engine, i.e. as i revved the engine, the tach responded to it!  so i'm assuming from this that there is so much RF bouncing around inside that engine compartment that the input wire to the tach is acting like an antenna, picking up the signal and sending it to the tach. local theories are that the very, very low resistance of the fire core wires are the culprit. i finally have another set of wires, (actually labeled suppression on the wires) that i am going to try. will give an update once that happens. once i have tried the wires, i only have one other (somewhat involved) option, and that is to relocate the box to the passenger compartment. but if it really is RF, that is the issue, then the wires should show that. i'm still not very far from just chucking the whole thing and going to a dual point, but i'll see what the new wires do. stay tuned...
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#1511268
03/18/14 12:20 PM
03/18/14 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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OP
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Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
MSD Digital6.. 
Check the Moparts google search.. Lots of stuff there..
Here's one..
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=1827249
Chris.. 
checked that out, and it is saying the same thing i'm suspecting. so now to just check it out and see if i can shield the box from the RF. i don't know about the plug wires, but it is the only thing i haven't changed at this point. i may move the box into the engine compartment, but only if i have a hint that will work.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1511269
03/18/14 12:24 PM
03/18/14 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
Don`t see the Firecore`s "high resistance" as an issue but whatever and all my ign. stuff is in the car mounted on the firewall on the pass. side and my MSD 6200 box is older than I can remember. You`ll find it but points aren`t a solution other than weeding out your dist............. 
not high resistance, low resistance, thereby throwing lots of RF around.
and while i agree that going to a points distributor isn't exactly a "solution", at this point the main thing on my mind is how well it ran with a points distributor in there, and how much time and effort i've gone through to deal with this issue, and am still nowhere. of course, i could be one step away from solving it, and not know it yet, but then i won't know until i get there!
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511270
03/18/14 01:38 PM
03/18/14 01:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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Quote:
Quote:
Don`t see the Firecore`s "high resistance" as an issue but whatever and all my ign. stuff is in the car mounted on the firewall on the pass. side and my MSD 6200 box is older than I can remember. You`ll find it but points aren`t a solution other than weeding out your dist.............
not high resistance, low resistance, thereby throwing lots of RF around.
and while i agree that going to a points distributor isn't exactly a "solution", at this point the main thing on my mind is how well it ran with a points distributor in there, and how much time and effort i've gone through to deal with this issue, and am still nowhere. of course, i could be one step away from solving it, and not know it yet, but then i won't know until i get there!
My bad, still don`t see that as a problem but I`m all ears and waiting to see your findings. 
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1511271
03/26/14 02:01 PM
03/26/14 02:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Posts: 4,179
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ok, again the latest.
swapped the fire core wires out to some stock type wires, (had the label "suppression"), on them.
if you remember, in order to have the engine rev limit at 6100, i have to set the limiter to 7100. so i set it back down to 6100 in case this made a significant difference.
took the car out and it got up to about 5700 or so, but was missing so badly it couldn't continue beyond that.
put the fire core wires back in, and it hard limited at about 5000. huge difference in behavior.
so i think it is pretty conclusive. only 2 things have made a difference since i started this, (3 if you count eliminating the MSD box entirely and putting in a dual point): resistor plugs and stock type wires.
it seems pretty obvious to me now that the issue involves the amount of RF under the hood, and the box is extremely sensitive to it. (yes, i know, many people have pointed that out, but i had to get there step by step). i don't know why my situation is so different than so many others, but for some as yet unknown reason, it is. everything is basically stock under the hood aside from the ignition system.
next step; rig a harness so i can temporarily relocate the box to the passenger compartment, and see what that does. if for some reason that doesn't take care of it, then i'm going to start looking at getting a dual point distributor in there.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511272
03/26/14 02:10 PM
03/26/14 02:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,543
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 13,543
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Have you tried the old analog style MSD 6AL on it? I had all kinds of misfiring issues w/ the MSD Digital 6...not the newer digital 6AL like you have. Sent it back, got a new one, same thing. Had it mounted under the dash where my old style 6AL had been. Ended up getting my money back and have been running the old school 6AL ever since w/o any problems. Those digital boxes are extremely sensitive.
CHIP
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'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1511275
03/26/14 03:16 PM
03/26/14 03:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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OP
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Posts: 4,179
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the box is mounted below the battery tray.
my old analog box does roughly the same thing, although i did not try it with the new wires.
it's not so much that i've been patient, just that i've been able to walk away from it for periods of time.
at this point i'm convinced that it isn't so much with the box, (although the latest tests show that it is probably RF, and these boxes should be less sensitive to that), as something with the car, but i can't figure out what.
a new realization came to light, but talking it over with a friend who specializes in wiring and these cars, we have somewhat ruled it out.
there are times when the starter does not engage when turning on the key. i've narrowed it down to the connection at the bulkhead. so if no response when turning the ignition key, i can just reach under the dash and wiggle the connection around a bit, and it fires. sometimes it doesn't pop up for months, a year or more, and sometimes it pops up more often, but is always solved that way.
but that is the connection going to the starter relay, not the connection to the ballast resistor.
i have checked the connections at the bulk head on the engine compartment side, but haven't yet from under the dash. things look good on this side.
so it is possible that there is a bad connection for the wire that runs to the ballast resistor as well, but there has never been any evidence of that. add to that that with the points distributor in place, where (if i understand correctly), the current to the coil actually flows through this connection, it ran great, that would lean towards a good connection. with the MSD box, it supplies voltage to the coil through it's own wires, and so this connection isn't even used.
so i'm still looking into that.
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Re: msd ignition woes
[Re: mickm]
#1511276
03/26/14 04:44 PM
03/26/14 04:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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A bad connector at the bulkhead could create your problems.. a higher draw would react to it more than a lesser draw... I would correct that before moving on
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Hearing about lots of issues w/those boxes myself and am still runnin my old reliable 6-a box inside the car......... 
