|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Dodgem]
#1492924
09/05/13 03:57 PM
09/05/13 03:57 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
|
OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
well you don't want to ad vacuum advance right now that adds more timing at light throttle.
At This point I would do an 8 cylinder compression test and go from there.
What did you set your valves at hot or cold??
Before I started in on all of this, I tested compression with a cold engine, all plugs out. Today I have yet to fire it up, so I can duplicate that cold testing procedure.
Regarding valve lash, I set them cold at .014 and .016. INT/EXH. The hot lash is listed to be .020 and .022 but I tightened it up .006 for expansion of the aluminum heads.
I'm going out now to test cranking compression.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1492926
09/05/13 05:46 PM
09/05/13 05:46 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
|
At this point I say take the engine out of the car, disassemble it and see where the problem really is.
If you have been fighting the same problem for two years there's something basically wrong with the engine. Could be a piston, bearing or wristpin. Could be something else like a pushrod banging on a cylinder head.
I am frankly not trusting your diagnoses. This isn't a knock on you. You are much too close to the problem and IMHO have become part of it. It's human nature. I've done some classic booboos by getting wrapped so tight around a problem that I can't see that one or more of my basic assumptions has been incorrect.
Another problem is that you "jump on your horse and ride off in all different directions." Again, too close to the problem.
Again, this isn't a knock on you. Look at it from the outside. An engine with 10.7:1 compresion and aluminum heads should be driveable with intake duration 230 degrees @ 50 lift. But it knocked with a bigger camshaft, the MP .509. This cam has way too much duration for the lift, so by its very nature it shouldn't be detonation prone. Now you have added another say 15 or so degrees @ 50 lift. But you still get detonation. You check the ignition timing, seems to be in the ballpark. Change carbs in order to catch out a perhaps lean at part throttle problem, doesn't help. THEN you up the octane to way above what the engine should require AND IT STILL KNOCKS!
Something is really wrong. You may be misinterpreting the sounds. You may have the head gasket problem. You may have a broken piston, a wristpin on the way out, etc. etc. etc.
It's pretty obvious to me that doing anything more to the outside of the engine isn't going to make things any better.
TIME TO EXCAVATE!
R.
PS: I am really interested in seeing you find and fix the problem. You have worked so hard on this. I am concerned that whatever it is, will damage the engine further if you continue to run it.
PPS: Again, this is not a knock on you.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: dogdays]
#1492928
09/05/13 06:26 PM
09/05/13 06:26 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
|
Quote:
At this point I say take the engine out of the car, disassemble it and see where the problem really is.
If you have been fighting the same problem for two years there's something basically wrong with the engine. Could be a piston, bearing or wristpin. Could be something else like a pushrod banging on a cylinder head.
I am frankly not trusting your diagnoses. This isn't a knock on you. You are much too close to the problem and IMHO have become part of it. It's human nature. I've done some classic booboos by getting wrapped so tight around a problem that I can't see that one or more of my basic assumptions has been incorrect.
Another problem is that you "jump on your horse and ride off in all different directions." Again, too close to the problem.
Again, this isn't a knock on you. Look at it from the outside. An engine with 10.7:1 compresion and aluminum heads should be driveable with intake duration 230 degrees @ 50 lift. But it knocked with a bigger camshaft, the MP .509. This cam has way too much duration for the lift, so by its very nature it shouldn't be detonation prone. Now you have added another say 15 or so degrees @ 50 lift. But you still get detonation. You check the ignition timing, seems to be in the ballpark. Change carbs in order to catch out a perhaps lean at part throttle problem, doesn't help. THEN you up the octane to way above what the engine should require AND IT STILL KNOCKS!
Something is really wrong. You may be misinterpreting the sounds. You may have the head gasket problem. You may have a broken piston, a wristpin on the way out, etc. etc. etc.
It's pretty obvious to me that doing anything more to the outside of the engine isn't going to make things any better.
TIME TO EXCAVATE!
R.
PS: I am really interested in seeing you find and fix the problem. You have worked so hard on this. I am concerned that whatever it is, will damage the engine further if you continue to run it.
PPS: Again, this is not a knock on you.
 Your engine defies physical laws! We NEED TO KNOW WHY!!! 
But seriously, you shouldn't have these issues with premium pump gas (with the retarded timing) and especially not with race gas! Something somewhere is not what you expect i.e. compression/timing/head gasket/etc.
Last thing you may try is the fuel pressure thing at WOT. You will need to plumb in a barb and use maybe 1/4" rubber FUEL line running to a pressure gauge taped to the windshield. I think you can buy the $10 vacuum/pressure gauge at Advance Auto and use it for this purpose.
Good luck! Just remember if this were an easy hobby, everyone would be driving these classic cars! 
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1492929
09/05/13 06:54 PM
09/05/13 06:54 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
|
Wow my old dyno program shows it would have 6 lb more cranking with this solid over the 509 hydraulic but wow??? maybe your compression is higher than you think?? But with 50/50 91/100 should have been fine?? don't know what to think I was thinking right around 170 would be right with that cam and 10.7 to one. You need a bigger cam and higher stall. :-) 
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Dodgem]
#1492930
09/05/13 07:09 PM
09/05/13 07:09 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
|
OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
Wow my old dyno program shows it would have 6 lb more cranking with this solid over the 509 hydraulic but wow???
Your "program" shows the Lunati to have MORE pressure? I wish I knew this. The guy that told me of the specs for the '509 said that THIS Lunati has an intake closing 11 degrees later. The ENTIRE goal here was to reduce cranking compression. I am pissed that I spent close to $1800 on parts over the last 2 months only to step backwards.
* 1.6 rocker arms: $450
* Pushrods for 1.6 arms: $120
* Lunati cam: $200
* Howards lifters: $180
* Pushrods/solid lifter $140
* Timing set $80
* Degree kit & misc: $140
* Gasket set: $70
* Milodon oil pan: $180
* Milodon oil pickup: $40
* Jegs windage tray: $80
* Break in oil $50
* Misc stuff: $100
$1830
After pulling all of the plugs for the test, I looked closely at them. They all looked about the same, though the plug gaps varied between .035 and .039. I regapped them and will go back out for another test. I want to run down the tank a bit then pour in the 110 leaded I just bought.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1492932
09/05/13 08:31 PM
09/05/13 08:31 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
|
Quote:
BSB, are you telling me that while the A/F ratio may look good on the guage, fuel pressure at WOT make a difference? My experience is that the A/F readings are unreliable when the carb is low on fuel/fuel pressure, especially on a few second burst.
I'm unsure of how I'm supposed to plumb a fuel pressure guage to see it while driving. Am I supposed to remove the hood and run 4 feet of hard line over to the windshield? There should be enough room in the gap between the hood and the firewall or fender to run a flexable plastic type line. I have done this several times, and if you look closely, you can see it in my sig. pic
Is it the fuel pressure at WOT? I don't know. But you really should do the test and find out one way or the other. If nothing else, you can then take one more thing off your list of what it could be.
Slow down and be more careful on your information and data gathering. Repeat or duplicate your tests to validate the results.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1492935
09/05/13 09:46 PM
09/05/13 09:46 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
|
Quote:
Currently I don't have a link, but the calculator I used was the KBsilvolite one. It uses the intake closing number, not duration. I'll look for it and link it.
This question was to Dodgem.
You need the duration to determine the IVC, either seat, or at 0.050", depending on the calculator. Yours should be 56 @ 0.050, and 84 using seat timing.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1492937
09/05/13 10:03 PM
09/05/13 10:03 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,311
Prospect, PA
|
Quote:
BSB,
I will look at fittings to plumb a guage extension for the fuel pressure tomorrow.
Is the belief that if fuel pressure drops at WOT, the A/F guage can read fine even if the engine runs lean or out of fuel?
I have data that says yes.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1492938
09/05/13 10:06 PM
09/05/13 10:06 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
|
Your "program" shows the Lunati to have MORE pressure? I wish I knew this. The guy that told me of the specs for the '509 said that THIS Lunati has an intake closing 11 degrees later. The ENTIRE goal here was to reduce cranking compression. I am pissed that I spent close to $1800 on parts over the last 2 months only to step backwards.
well a 261 degree cam closes 6.5 degrees later than a 248 509 mopar cam 261 - 248= 13 /2 =6.5 half the extra duration is on opening. and then it's a solid so that really comes into play with the way a solid works with it's lash and positive opening and closing.
|
|
|
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it.
[Re: Dodgem]
#1492940
09/05/13 10:34 PM
09/05/13 10:34 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
OP
Striving for excellence
|
OP
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
well a 261 degree cam closes 6.5 degrees later than a 248 509 mopar cam 261 - 248= 13 /2 =6.5 half the extra duration is on opening. and then it's a solid so that really comes into play with the way a solid works with it's lash and positive opening and closing.
Since I am a bit frazzled with all of this stuff, Isn't the whole theory of a later intake closing still relevant? If the intake valve closes later with the piston rising in the bore, how can it be building more pressure?
|
|
|
|
|
