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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: RylisPro]
#1492604
09/11/13 01:37 PM
09/11/13 01:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101
I got lucky at Woodward!
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I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Quote:
Autocross I typically leave in 1st or 2nd.
Road course I'm in mostly in 3rd or 4th, 5th on straightaways.
6th for the drive there and back
Stick may be slower but sure is more fun!
That's what I told my friends when we would talk about our cars. One has a 318 powered Demon with a 904. The other is building a 600 hp LS with an automatic in his '73 Nova. I asked them why not put a manual trans or 6-speed in their car. The one in the Demon said it was too much effort to change gears and he'd be slower (he's a little lazy imo). The one in the Nova didn't want to spend the money to make sure the transmission wouldn't explode.
When I had my 5-speed in my Stealth, I loved it. It had its troubles but it brought enjoyment to the ride. When I got my 6-speed manual in my Scion tC I don't see how I could go back to anything lower than that. There's just something about driving a stick shift that makes it fun. It doesn't add any stress. I feel I have more control of the vehicle. On a side note, I also drive in an hour of traffic one way on my commute to work with my manual transmission.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: PHJ426]
#1492605
09/11/13 06:43 PM
09/11/13 06:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,470
Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,470
Answering the call of the wild
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Is the T56 6 speed that much stronger than the Passion 5 speed? Passon 5 sp is designed to take a lot of torque-i cant remember the # Jamie told me, but it's equal to or qreater than the snake charmers notchy 5 sp. Is having 6 gears more important than 5? Not unless you want more mpg or want to run say 90 mph at 2500rpm and like welding and fabrication Is cutting the factory transmission / torsion bar cross-member a big deal? Yes, but if done correctly with care it becomes no big deal. Any other opinions or suggestions on the Passion 5 speed vs T56 6 speed that I have not covered? I would prefer the bolt on option over the weld in option. Jamie is producing transmissions and wresting with making sure it's 101 percent. I would like to see those of you whom are complaining -i consider you whiners - to do what he has done. I will road course test one someday and i am sure it will work like all the others I have road coursed. 4 speeds in both flavors std 833 and overdrive 833. Bulletproof and vibration/noise free with over 2000 shifts upndown and 130 mph in 4th.  As to availability - those whom are on the list get the product first. This is not wallmart so what does readily available really mean? 
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1492606
09/11/13 07:03 PM
09/11/13 07:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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If the Passon can stand up to 800 ft/lbs as claimed, that would make it the toughest available. The T56 is tough as hell in the Viper OEM form though. If I was confident with the reputation of the TKO's I might of went that route but i've heard ALOT negatives about them, especially shift quality. Mine fell in my lap almost and was a brand new trans that I paid $1700 for it shipped. It actually was installed in a Drag Pack Chally from Mopar for shipping purposes. Its an expensive swap compared to gathering up parts for a 833 swap for sure, but if your can cut and weld its really a bargain.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1492607
09/12/13 01:43 AM
09/12/13 01:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 86
Battle Ground, Washington
Rapom65
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 86
Battle Ground, Washington
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Not much of an argument in my opinion, I would love to have either of these trans!
If I remember the numbers correctly Jamie currently rates his trans at 650 ft lbs and based on his testing to date feels he can safely up it another 100 in the future.
T56 pros: Coolness, shift quality, gear selection for any situation, probably better racing setup for more serious guys, stronger/lighter?
T56 cons: Fair amount of fab & welding required, total cost in 6K range, parts have to be sourced from many vendors and made to play together.
Worth it? yes
Passion pros: direct bolt in utilizing existing components, no fab/welding, less expensive by $1500 or so IF you have 18 spline set up, if not then need new clutch/pressure plate
Passion cons: currently limited availability, unproven in the hands of the Destructive Test Division (public) who can f up a peanut butter sandwich in short order.
I think they both appeal to large, but differing, segments of the hobby and will fill their nitches very well.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Rapom65]
#1492608
09/12/13 09:37 AM
09/12/13 09:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Quote:
Not much of an argument in my opinion, I would love to have either of these trans!
If I remember the numbers correctly Jamie currently rates his trans at 650 ft lbs and based on his testing to date feels he can safely up it another 100 in the future.
T56 pros: Coolness, shift quality, gear selection for any situation, probably better racing setup for more serious guys, stronger/lighter?
T56 cons: Fair amount of fab & welding required, total cost in 6K range, parts have to be sourced from many vendors and made to play together.
Worth it? yes
Passion pros: direct bolt in utilizing existing components, no fab/welding, less expensive by $1500 or so IF you have 18 spline set up, if not then need new clutch/pressure plate
Passion cons: currently limited availability, unproven in the hands of the Destructive Test Division (public) who can f up a peanut butter sandwich in short order.
I think they both appeal to large, but differing, segments of the hobby and will fill their nitches very well.
I think you are a bit out on your pricing, a new t 56 can be purchased for $ 3000 and sometimes a lot less if you get a deal. The Passon is around $ 4500 for just the transmission, after that both need a bell housing, clutch ,pressure plate, shifter ect.
Granted you may already a 4 speed 833 in your car so you may not need anything more than the transmission, but if you don't you would looking at $6000 to do a Passon 5 speed into a car that has an automatic in it.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1492609
09/12/13 10:49 AM
09/12/13 10:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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Quote:
Is the T56 6 speed that much stronger than the Passion 5 speed?
Passon 5 sp is designed to take a lot of torque-i cant remember the # Jamie told me, but it's equal to or qreater than the snake charmers notchy 5 sp.
Is having 6 gears more important than 5?
Not unless you want more mpg or want to run say 90 mph at 2500rpm and like welding and fabrication
Is cutting the factory transmission / torsion bar cross-member a big deal? Yes, but if done correctly with care it becomes no big deal.
Any other opinions or suggestions on the Passion 5 speed vs T56 6 speed that I have not covered?
I would prefer the bolt on option over the weld in option. Jamie is producing transmissions and wresting with making sure it's 101 percent. I would like to see those of you whom are complaining -i consider you whiners - to do what he has done. I will road course test one someday and i am sure it will work like all the others I have road coursed. 4 speeds in both flavors std 833 and overdrive 833. Bulletproof and vibration/noise free with over 2000 shifts upndown and 130 mph in 4th.
As to availability - those whom are on the list get the product first. This is not wallmart so what does readily available really mean?
Now this is good info.....since I will be selling the 72 Road Runner as a stock car before I start investing big cash in it for handling mods like this.......
The handling parts, wheels, tires Viper brakes etc will be going into the 71 Challenger factory 318 car turned bracket race car in the 1970's. This car already has some modifications to it, roll bar etc.....so cutting the floor will not hurt as bad as if I had cut the floor on the 72 that is stock.
The Challenger will require all the parts to convert this as its an automatic car currently.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: 67autocross]
#1492610
09/12/13 06:17 PM
09/12/13 06:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
Granted you may already a 4 speed 833 in your car so you may not need anything more than the transmission, but if you don't you would looking at $6000 to do a Passon 5 speed into a car that has an automatic in it.
$6000? I dunno about that. When I swapped my Diplomat over to A833 I had well under $1000 into it and I had to buy everything as there were no 87 M body sticks ever made.
I'll grant I bought used OEM parts for a lot of it. Bell (A body), flywheel (V6 Dak) was OEM used. New Sachs clutch, pressure plate and TO bearing off Ebay, new linkage rebuild kit (MP), Found a Volare in the boneyard with a stick, got the pedals, Z bar and floor hump. New Hurst Indy shifter. The A833 was out of a 70 A body, $100, later I bought three A833OD and various shifters, linkage, pedals, and such for $150 off Ebay, that is still sitting in my garage.
Now If I went SFI cert then I'd probably add another $500 to the bill. I guess you could get close to $6k going SFI and needing everything as well as the A855. But if you already have the A833, nope.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Supercuda]
#1492611
09/13/13 10:34 AM
09/13/13 10:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
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If the Passon conversion is $4500 by itself, by the time you source pedals, tunnel, carpet, underhood linkage and brackets, none of which I believe are included in the Passon conversion package, it would take much to add an extra grand to grand and a half to an automatic conversion using new parts.
Yes, if you scrounge around, buy used parts and collect parts over an extended time frame, you can do it for much less. However, there are always a lot of guys willing to collect parts for 2-3 years to save a grand. Typically we see questions on here like I want to convert my automatic in two weekends so I don't loose any cruising time, how hard is it. If this is your modus operandi, then your are going to pay premium prices.
Similarly you can do the same with a T56 conversion. By waiting and browsing, I was able to score a small block to T56 bell housing for $150. Normally these cost $500+. 72Swinger scored his new T56 for $1700, which are usually twice that. If your a budget shopper, you have to manage time as much as money.
This is where budget wise, the T56 will have it over the Passon unit. The proliferation of T56s out there means you can wait out bargains. That won't happen with the 855 anytime in the next decade, if ever. There simply won't be enough of them out there for bargains to pop up. Sure, maybe is some one dies and leaves a garage full of parts that their kids unload cheap, you might score one for a bargain, but I'd bet those to be the exception.
If you have the ability to fabricate stuff, as there will be fabrication involved with a T56 conversion, then that also puts the budget column on the T56 side. If you don't have the time, skills, or desire to cut and weld, have a pedigreed car that would loose value because of mods, then the 855 will likely be worth the money and be a great value.
Its all perspective. Much like the great Mustang debate next topic over...
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1492612
09/13/13 10:49 AM
09/13/13 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
If the Passon conversion is $4500 by itself, by the time you source pedals, tunnel, carpet, underhood linkage and brackets, none of which I believe are included in the Passon conversion package, it would take much to add an extra grand to grand and a half to an automatic conversion using new parts.
I think these items should be left out of the comparison entirely, simply because you'll need that stuff regardless of what transmission you buy if starting with an automatic. The parts that do deserve mention are those a 4 speed owner would already have like the pedals, drive shaft, bell housing, trans support cross member, etc. all of which can be reused with the Passon unit. All you need to change is the trans itself, very few (if any?) special surrounding parts. You can't say that about any other trans that I am aware of.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Rapom65]
#1492616
09/14/13 05:39 PM
09/14/13 05:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 86
Battle Ground, Washington
Rapom65
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 86
Battle Ground, Washington
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Apologies to PHJ426. I went back and reread his original questions and noticed that he had latter stated his car had a 727. Totally missed that so my answers were really not to point.
So... IF you have the fab skills and equipment I would go T56. More gears to select from, better shift quality, shifter location in middle of trans hump gets rid of the foot well intrusion of the stock hump and probably just "feels" more correct (personal preference), more aftermarket support for upgrades/repair, much larger selection of clutches, shifters, flywheels and so forth. You are going to have to mod the tunnel sheet metal, fab an upper brace to tie the trans cross member back together and/or build a trans mount (I would do both). I believe you'll have to convert clutch actuation over to Hyd. Any questions on the T56 conversion I would ask 72Swinger as he's done it and is loving the results on the road and track.
As for the A855, fab effort is going to be much less. Cutting trans tunnel and welding in new hump. Installing clutch pedal assy. (bolt in), 4 speed carpet set. Most of the rest of the conversion requires the same but different applicable parts (bells, clutches, fly wheels, shifters, drive shaft mods et al.
Other than the fab work involved I would expect the cost comparison between the two would be very close.
Other things have to be considered, such as your rear axle ratio, which will affect the usefulness of six gears. May need to optimize that so add it to the cost if applicable. I think Jamie said the A855 has the same gear ratios as the 833 with the addition of an OD 5th gear. So if you liked those but were always looking for that next up shift then problem solved.
As for which is better for street and track: there are so few people who have driven a car with the A855 in it, other than Jamie himself, that the question is pure speculation and emotion at this point. Hopefully there are some getting seat time as we speak, er... type, so maybe some with 1st hand knowledge will be chirping in soon.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Rapom65]
#1492617
09/14/13 08:17 PM
09/14/13 08:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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better shift quality?
I have never shifted a T56, but I have shifted plenty of rail shifters, they ain't better than a fresh A833 setup. When I got eh swap done in my 87 Diplomat I could shift with two fingers. New shifter that I took apart, polished up and greased. Metal bushings instead of plastic, shimmed the spring clips so there was minimal slop. New bushings in the clutch linkage, with a metal vice rubber bushing at the fork. I guess if you want to compare a wore out A833 setup to a new T56 install, then yeah I guess it might shift better.
4 speed carpet? I have never had a problem getting the existing carpet to cover the hump.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Supercuda]
#1492618
09/15/13 07:53 AM
09/15/13 07:53 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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I have no input in the 855 topic, but would just comment on the T56 I put in my Dakota now that I have a few hundred miles on it.
I aboslutely love it, and wish these trucks had this transmission from the factory. robust, strong, yet shifts like a light duty commuter econo car transmission.
gear ratios are perfect in my opinion. I put 4.56 gears in the axle and have tires that are just under 27" tall. first gear spins a lot on street tires driving on the street, but with some half way decent tires and track prep, it will probably spin a lot less. If I'm driving around in town, 4th gear works well below 45 mph, I can use 5th gear on rural highways up to about 55 mph, and once I'm out on the interstate, I can tool along at 73 mph while turning just 2000 rpm.
That said...I would have to think long and hard about putting a T56 into my 70 Cuda when it gets to that point. the T56 fits into my 98 Dakota without ANY sheetmetal modifications. I did a front shift relocation kit to the T56 and the shifter comes through the stock hole in the floor from the original NV3500 transmission shifter allowing me to use my stock consoles inside. All I needed to put it into the Dakota was the quicktime bell (and a custom $500 flywheel that's 130 tooth to fit the bell, while retaining the tone ring for the EFI computer) and a custom made transmission mount. I'm even using the stock transmission crossmember.
I'm not so sure I'm ready to go non-stock on the floor pan of my Cuda. even though it'll never be a high dollar collector without the build sheet or the fender tag.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#1492619
09/18/13 09:01 AM
09/18/13 09:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Some here argue the need for a 6-speed over a 5-speed, or two overdrive gears. Well, i'll just go ahead and argue the need FOR them.
Not for everybody, but if you like to drive FAST... for long periods ov time, then you've gotta gear for that (lets just assume that you're not just steeenking rich). I currently daily drive a 96 Mustang GT (4.6L, 5-speed, 3.27 8.8"). In my 72 Charger... i HATED the 3.23's. What a useless ratio. Does NOTHING well. Not good for drag racing unless you run a Caddy 500, not good for MPG unless you never go over 50MPH. Its a better gear in my GT, as the 4.6L is smooth as glass and VERY efficient, but in the average classic car, 2600RPM at 60MPH is excessive. Further, who actually drives at 60 on the highway? most do 70 or more, me... a lot more. One trip i make infrequently averages around 95MPH. In my car, 100MPH in 5th is 3000RPM. The car seems to run well and use pretty much NO gas at 2000RPM highway. Granted, the 4.6L doesn't make enough torque to pull a 3400lb Mustang 100MPH at 2000RPM, but it sure as hell doesn't need 3000. A big block anything could easily pull 100MPH at 2K. A big block or even an old-school (non-Magnum) small block wont be happy at 3K either, so lets bring that down too. Further, at times i only limit myself to 100MPH because ov the mileage. Give me more gear (legs) and i'll get to point-B faster.
For anyone cringing at the Mad Max visuals here, one can easily substitute an open-course road race here.
Thats one point. the other... is gearing. In my Mustang (to make my point), a common mod is a 3.73 rear upgrade, or for the 7000RPM 4-valves, a 4.10, 4.30 or even (many will vehemently argue) a 4.56 gear upgrade. For a drag racer, sure the single OD will bring that 4+ gear down well into the 3's to drive to and from the track... and do some peelers on the strip. But for the guy that wants it all, the T56 can let you have 4.30 or 4.56's at the track/street drags, and still have around a 3.27 gear for the highway (thats a 4.56 gear, that runs 2000RPM @ 60MPH). Thats a LOT ov range. For those that argue the 1st gear becomes useless in a steep-1st T56 with 4.56 gears, the Mustang guys will counter that well... if it wasn't all-out faster, they wouldn't be doing it. Most cars on Moparts wont need anything over a 4.10 rear, but with 'only' a single OD speed you're still making a lot ov noise on the highway. Remember, we are living in the age ov having your cake and eating it too. Not wanting to take advantage ov that is like sticking to 40 year old cam grinds when there is soooo much better stuff available now... just because 'its good enough'.
My plan: light car, 7000-7500RPM small efficient V8, T56, 3.27's. That'll give me the 1st gear launch i'm used to in the GT more or less (enough for me), and basically, a whole 'nother gear on top ov the 5th when i'm doing 100MPH and either want to go faster (in my car the engine WILL pull the gear/speed) or just save some gas at 'cruising speed'....
Granted... my points will be for extreme needs, but i would still argue the fuel savings if you like to drive over 70MPH for periods in a car with a big or pre-Magnum (read: inefficient) engine. Sure i'll get the "oh well if you're looking for MPG buy a Honda!" retort... which... is almost always coming from people who drive their cars only on sunny weekends. Whole lotta big scary 440's sitting under dust because they're too expensive and annoying (at sustained highway RPM's) to run...
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1492620
09/18/13 01:22 PM
09/18/13 01:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Quote:
Some here argue the need for a 6-speed over a 5-speed, or two overdrive gears. Well, i'll just go ahead and argue the need FOR them.
Not for everybody, but if you like to drive FAST... for long periods ov time, then you've gotta gear for that (lets just assume that you're not just steeenking rich). I currently daily drive a 96 Mustang GT (4.6L, 5-speed, 3.27 8.8"). In my 72 Charger... i HATED the 3.23's. What a useless ratio. Does NOTHING well. Not good for drag racing unless you run a Caddy 500, not good for MPG unless you never go over 50MPH. Its a better gear in my GT, as the 4.6L is smooth as glass and VERY efficient, but in the average classic car, 2600RPM at 60MPH is excessive. Further, who actually drives at 60 on the highway? most do 70 or more, me... a lot more. One trip i make infrequently averages around 95MPH. In my car, 100MPH in 5th is 3000RPM. The car seems to run well and use pretty much NO gas at 2000RPM highway. Granted, the 4.6L doesn't make enough torque to pull a 3400lb Mustang 100MPH at 2000RPM, but it sure as hell doesn't need 3000. A big block anything could easily pull 100MPH at 2K. A big block or even an old-school (non-Magnum) small block wont be happy at 3K either, so lets bring that down too. Further, at times i only limit myself to 100MPH because ov the mileage. Give me more gear (legs) and i'll get to point-B faster.
For anyone cringing at the Mad Max visuals here, one can easily substitute an open-course road race here.
Thats one point. the other... is gearing. In my Mustang (to make my point), a common mod is a 3.73 rear upgrade, or for the 7000RPM 4-valves, a 4.10, 4.30 or even (many will vehemently argue) a 4.56 gear upgrade. For a drag racer, sure the single OD will bring that 4+ gear down well into the 3's to drive to and from the track... and do some peelers on the strip. But for the guy that wants it all, the T56 can let you have 4.30 or 4.56's at the track/street drags, and still have around a 3.27 gear for the highway (thats a 4.56 gear, that runs 2000RPM @ 60MPH). Thats a LOT ov range. For those that argue the 1st gear becomes useless in a steep-1st T56 with 4.56 gears, the Mustang guys will counter that well... if it wasn't all-out faster, they wouldn't be doing it. Most cars on Moparts wont need anything over a 4.10 rear, but with 'only' a single OD speed you're still making a lot ov noise on the highway. Remember, we are living in the age ov having your cake and eating it too. Not wanting to take advantage ov that is like sticking to 40 year old cam grinds when there is soooo much better stuff available now... just because 'its good enough'.
My plan: light car, 7000-7500RPM small efficient V8, T56, 3.27's. That'll give me the 1st gear launch i'm used to in the GT more or less (enough for me), and basically, a whole 'nother gear on top ov the 5th when i'm doing 100MPH and either want to go faster (in my car the engine WILL pull the gear/speed) or just save some gas at 'cruising speed'....
Granted... my points will be for extreme needs, but i would still argue the fuel savings if you like to drive over 70MPH for periods in a car with a big or pre-Magnum (read: inefficient) engine. Sure i'll get the "oh well if you're looking for MPG buy a Honda!" retort... which... is almost always coming from people who drive their cars only on sunny weekends. Whole lotta big scary 440's sitting under dust because they're too expensive and annoying (at sustained highway RPM's) to run...
You must be driving on the Coquihalla highway….last year we went on a road trip to Vancouver while staying at the lake in Kelowna. We drove my wife’s Lexus and I was driving close to 100mph a lot of the way, even at that speed we had a lot of high end cars blow past us.
At one point it was like a scene from Fast & Furious with a Nissan GTR and a worked 350 z going at it and a bunch new BMW’s mixed in. It’s a great drive and I next time I go I’m going to bring more car for the drive.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: 67autocross]
#1492621
09/18/13 07:57 PM
09/18/13 07:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Quote:
Some here argue the need for a 6-speed over a 5-speed, or two overdrive gears. Well, i'll just go ahead and argue the need FOR them.
Not for everybody, but if you like to drive FAST... for long periods ov time, then you've gotta gear for that (lets just assume that you're not just steeenking rich). I currently daily drive a 96 Mustang GT (4.6L, 5-speed, 3.27 8.8"). In my 72 Charger... i HATED the 3.23's. What a useless ratio. Does NOTHING well. Not good for drag racing unless you run a Caddy 500, not good for MPG unless you never go over 50MPH. Its a better gear in my GT, as the 4.6L is smooth as glass and VERY efficient, but in the average classic car, 2600RPM at 60MPH is excessive. Further, who actually drives at 60 on the highway? most do 70 or more, me... a lot more. One trip i make infrequently averages around 95MPH. In my car, 100MPH in 5th is 3000RPM. The car seems to run well and use pretty much NO gas at 2000RPM highway. Granted, the 4.6L doesn't make enough torque to pull a 3400lb Mustang 100MPH at 2000RPM, but it sure as hell doesn't need 3000. A big block anything could easily pull 100MPH at 2K. A big block or even an old-school (non-Magnum) small block wont be happy at 3K either, so lets bring that down too. Further, at times i only limit myself to 100MPH because ov the mileage. Give me more gear (legs) and i'll get to point-B faster.
For anyone cringing at the Mad Max visuals here, one can easily substitute an open-course road race here.
Thats one point. the other... is gearing. In my Mustang (to make my point), a common mod is a 3.73 rear upgrade, or for the 7000RPM 4-valves, a 4.10, 4.30 or even (many will vehemently argue) a 4.56 gear upgrade. For a drag racer, sure the single OD will bring that 4+ gear down well into the 3's to drive to and from the track... and do some peelers on the strip. But for the guy that wants it all, the T56 can let you have 4.30 or 4.56's at the track/street drags, and still have around a 3.27 gear for the highway (thats a 4.56 gear, that runs 2000RPM @ 60MPH). Thats a LOT ov range. For those that argue the 1st gear becomes useless in a steep-1st T56 with 4.56 gears, the Mustang guys will counter that well... if it wasn't all-out faster, they wouldn't be doing it. Most cars on Moparts wont need anything over a 4.10 rear, but with 'only' a single OD speed you're still making a lot ov noise on the highway. Remember, we are living in the age ov having your cake and eating it too. Not wanting to take advantage ov that is like sticking to 40 year old cam grinds when there is soooo much better stuff available now... just because 'its good enough'.
My plan: light car, 7000-7500RPM small efficient V8, T56, 3.27's. That'll give me the 1st gear launch i'm used to in the GT more or less (enough for me), and basically, a whole 'nother gear on top ov the 5th when i'm doing 100MPH and either want to go faster (in my car the engine WILL pull the gear/speed) or just save some gas at 'cruising speed'....
Granted... my points will be for extreme needs, but i would still argue the fuel savings if you like to drive over 70MPH for periods in a car with a big or pre-Magnum (read: inefficient) engine. Sure i'll get the "oh well if you're looking for MPG buy a Honda!" retort... which... is almost always coming from people who drive their cars only on sunny weekends. Whole lotta big scary 440's sitting under dust because they're too expensive and annoying (at sustained highway RPM's) to run...
You must be driving on the Coquihalla highway….last year we went on a road trip to Vancouver while staying at the lake in Kelowna. We drove my wife’s Lexus and I was driving close to 100mph a lot of the way, even at that speed we had a lot of high end cars blow past us.
At one point it was like a scene from Fast & Furious with a Nissan GTR and a worked 350 z going at it and a bunch new BMW’s mixed in. It’s a great drive and I next time I go I’m going to bring more car for the drive.
Well... ov course... my scenarios were all theoretical... (heh heh...)
Yeah the Coq is a speedway for sure. There are spots where that speed is hard (though hardly impossible) to hold, but others where you'd need a veritable supercar to keep you awake. There's one stretch on the Kelowna connector where i swear you'd run out ov gear in a new Viper/Shelby/GT...
I'm just in a lowly 215HP GT. Those stretches can take a looooonnng time to reel in. I cant remember how many times i've said that... 'I need more car for this.'
Then there's that one stretch just South ov Calgary (22X?) where i swear even Big Red would get bored...
Funny though, i've never been passed at 100mph except for this one time on the Coq. This older, top-heavy Nissan (or whatever) minivan literally loaded with some extended family passed me going around 105 (i was doing 95). Bloody madness. Yeah, i let that one go...
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Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1492622
09/18/13 10:03 PM
09/18/13 10:03 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Engine plays a role.
ears ago I was racing a Tbird Turbo Coupe down I25 in my 86 Daytona. At 125+ the engine could not pull hard enough in 5th to keep the Tbird behind me. Drop into 4th and I'd pull away from him.
But in all honesty there isn't a legal option for me to need double overdrive. Also, consider I drove my 64 300 from Memphis to San Diego with 4.10 gears doing 70 for most of it, so rpm does not bother me (A745 three speed in it).
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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