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Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149065
11/11/08 12:44 AM
11/11/08 12:44 AM
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Hello,
Well, here goes! I have been lurking Moparts for many years but this is my first post.
I'm thinking about the logistics of doing a 4.7/RFE swap into my 74 Dodge Charger. I have seen several posts discussing this but not much in the way of technical EFI details. I have been emailing with Resto Rick regarding the fabrication side but for this post I'd like to focus on the wiring, control modules and sensors.
For this discussion lets assume a few things so that we are all on the same page;
The drive train is out of a 2003 Dodge Ram 2wd.
I would have everything from the ram for the swap EXCEPT the instrument cluster, rear differential with VSS (vehicle speed control), the ABS sensors and cats/exhaust. I would change out the tail housing to use a mechanical speedometer cable.
I would consider success for this project as being able to keep the stock engine/transmission computers as well as having a valid check engine light that only lights when there is an issue. I have no want to modify the combo from stock now or in the future since it will be replacing a tired but adequate slant six/727 now in the car.
So could the ECM be flashed to work properly given these requirements? Has anyone else completed a similar project?
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149067
11/11/08 10:38 AM
11/11/08 10:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
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Here's a thread where Resto Rick chimed in on his project, and was started by someone else thinking on a similar project. I don't really have anything to offer since then, but I'm still really interested in the 4.7L as a swap project. It's probably 150# lighter than my 340, and the 08+ units make more power. I'll be watching this project, too. Clair
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#149068
11/11/08 02:48 PM
11/11/08 02:48 PM
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Should be doable based on the criteria I mentioned and a flash or should be doable if I have all the inputs including the ones I mentioned I didn't have?
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
[Re: Clair_Davis]
#149069
11/11/08 02:57 PM
11/11/08 02:57 PM
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Thanks for the link. I have seen that post as well and it has helped some.
These 4.7 drive trains would be cool and swaps with them are mentioned often. However there are even fewer with a 4.7 in the hole such as where Rick is now and none that I can find finished and running with the criteria I mentioned in my first post. Hopefully someone who has done it will chime in soon!
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149070
11/13/08 12:43 PM
11/13/08 12:43 PM
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bpemopar.com website states that that they can flash engine ecm control modules.
I sent an email to them to have them read my first post and tell me if they can flash my ecm to work within my criteria for success. I will post what I find out from them as soon as they respond.
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149071
11/18/08 01:22 AM
11/18/08 01:22 AM
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So far my email to BPE has not been answered either way...  However others I have emailed have been more timely and helpful. It looks like a MegaSquirt running the injectors in batch mode with a Ford EDIS ignition is one possible solution. If $ is no object a FAST XFI box would work as well. Anyone here using a FAST XFI with a 4.7? What did you do to control the coil on plugs (COPs)? Did you use a 36-1 custom sprocket?
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149072
11/18/08 03:20 AM
11/18/08 03:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Quote:
It looks like a MegaSquirt running the injectors in batch mode with a Ford EDIS ignition is one possible solution.
Yep, that would definitely be an option and definitely the cheapest way out. An aftermarket EFI controller would be my option of choice just because it'll allow you to mod the engine a little and tune to take full advantage of your combo.
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149073
11/18/08 12:50 PM
11/18/08 12:50 PM
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I heard back from BPE early this morning. Here is the email that was sent to me.
Hi,
Unfortunately due to the vast amount of e-mail with questions, some do get overlooked. So, sorry for the tardy reply. The biggest issue we have is "Why a 4.7?"..... in the long run you will put the same money in it verses installation of a 5.7 gen3 hemi....the 4.7's we have found are not much, if any more fuel efficient than a good tuned 5.7......everything is do able, as long as the budget doesn't run out..... One major thing we tell most people, at first, is that if you are doing this as a budget project, you can do a good LA or Big Block engine a lot less expensive.....also , we did notice on your post someone else mentioned experience....... VERY,VERY, VERY, VERY IMPORTANT..... you really do need some back ground in computers and electronic fuel injection to pull this off, instead of pulling your hair out when you get down close to what you believe is "Near Completion of your Project" and lose interest in the project....Just some items to "Chew Over"......just let us know your direction
Thank You
Bouchillon Performance Engineering
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149074
11/18/08 12:51 PM
11/18/08 12:51 PM
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I sent this back to BPE. I hope I will get a yes or no back on the original flash questions.
Why a 4.7? Why did the original owner special order the Charger powder blue, slap stick with a slant six from the factory? I don't mind keeping the car an odd duck. Besides, I can get the whole 4.7-45RFE drive train for $600 including everything under the hood.
I'm a computer programmer by trade and this is not my first EFI project nor my first complete vehicle re-wire...
This conversation is getting off track. So can you flash the computer to work within the threads original criteria for success?
Thanks,
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149075
11/18/08 12:54 PM
11/18/08 12:54 PM
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Rich from fastmanefi has been very helpful. I think he is going to look a little deeper into some of the unknowns. This is the email he sent back to me.
Two ways to go. Try to get the OEM ECU connected and happy. Meaning all the inputs it expects.
The other way is to install an aftermarket EFI system. I sell FAST.
That year 4.7 uses COP (Coil-on-plug) so you'd need the FAST XIM for ignition control as well.
I'd have to check if you could keep your coils or swap them for something like the LS1 coils.
Then you'd need to get a "cam signal", so the ECU could sync up. I don't know how you would get this right now, I'd have to do some research on that.
Anyway - the cheapest way to go would be to use the OEM ECU if possible.
The FAST solution would cost about $3000.
Sorry - not a perfect answer. Doable? yes, but with some work for sure.
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149076
11/18/08 01:08 PM
11/18/08 01:08 PM
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I think once the 4.7 swap people get a crank trigger that will work well with either the Ford EDIS or one that will work well with FAST the rest will be cake. I sent an email back to FAST about the LS1 coil comment but hopefully those will not be needed once a suitable crank trigger is in place. Justin with MegaSquirt has also been very helpful. Here is a link to some generic crank triggers that they have. http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/trigger_wheels_index.htm Anyone use one of these on a 4.7? Anyone else think there is sufficient demand for a 4.7 specific crank trigger solution that would play well with FAST or EDIS/MS?
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149077
11/18/08 01:20 PM
11/18/08 01:20 PM
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The COPs (Coil On Plugs) must be managed. If you are looking into an EFI solution for your 4.7 find out if the solution you are looking at is only managing the fuel or if it is indeed managing both fuel and spark. Here is some info on the Ford EDIS ignition which can be made to work well with MS. http://www.alternativeauto.com/waterbox/wb_archives/edis.htmlHere is some MS EDIS info http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149078
11/18/08 02:34 PM
11/18/08 02:34 PM
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Joined: May 2005
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Dayton, Ohio
wldtm
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I think a small hurdle you may have to jump is vehicle speed for the trans controller. On that vehicle it gets vehicle speed from probably the diff tone ring, then its sent to the anti-lock brake module, and its is then sent to the PCM, for cruise, and trans controls. This is possible, you need to figure out a way to show speed input to the PCM on that circuit.
If I were going to do it, I would opt for a 46rh, and sell the RE, and use a manual trans controller. This would be much easier in my opinion. I bet if you looked on the ebay or car-part.com you could find an 02 Dodge Dakota manual trans controller and be set-up.
Not sure but I bet it would go into limp in mode without speed. PM me your email, i can get you the wiring diagram if you need it.
Good luck
Justin
Interested in having you car wired? Drag car, street car, EFI swap?
PM for details
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
[Re: wldtm]
#149079
11/18/08 02:59 PM
11/18/08 02:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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The ford EDIS-8 system would do the job, just you would no longer have coil on plug, you would have the ford edis style coil and plug wires, still no distributor obviously. Fabbing up the trigger wheel would be the hardest part, but if you check out the megasquirt forums, MANY people have done it.
You do have to watch which trans you are using. If you use the o/d trans that the computer just controls the overdrive gear and the lockup converter, that's peanuts to hook up with an aftermarket efi controller and a little extra circuitry that has been described several times on here. But if your trans is a solenoid/electronically controlled setup, you will need the factory ECU to be hooked up correctly, because as far as a I know, nobody is making a trans control computer for the later mopar o/d's.
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
[Re: wldtm]
#149080
11/18/08 03:14 PM
11/18/08 03:14 PM
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Quote:
I think a small hurdle you may have to jump is vehicle speed for the trans controller. On that vehicle it gets vehicle speed from probably the diff tone ring, then its sent to the anti-lock brake module, and its is then sent to the PCM, for cruise, and trans controls. This is possible, you need to figure out a way to show speed input to the PCM on that circuit.
If I were going to do it, I would opt for a 46rh, and sell the RE, and use a manual trans controller. This would be much easier in my opinion. I bet if you looked on the ebay or car-part.com you could find an 02 Dodge Dakota manual trans controller and be set-up.
Not sure but I bet it would go into limp in mode without speed. PM me your email, i can get you the wiring diagram if you need it.
Good luck
Justin
I agree on the VSS sensor being an issue with the stock ecm. It would be key to know if that would put the truck in limp mode for sure...
I was thinking of making a late model Dak or Ram rear end with the VSS work in the car but seems that would be a huge pain.
Some time in the past I came accross a picture of a VSS on the end of a transmission or perhaps it was on the driveshaft but I can't find it online now. I'm sure there is more than one way to make this signal...
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149081
11/18/08 03:24 PM
11/18/08 03:24 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,130
Dayton, Ohio
wldtm
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Yeah you can do it off the driveshaft. I would really look into the 46rh set up, and use a manual trans dakota controller. I bet for sure it goes into limp in mode. Actually if I have time, I can check my DD is an 02 ram 4.7 rfe. I will try to check that soon. PS I have done a similar swap with a 5.7 and made my own harness. If you need some help or someone to bounce ideas off of, I like these conversions Justin 
Interested in having you car wired? Drag car, street car, EFI swap?
PM for details
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#149082
11/18/08 03:26 PM
11/18/08 03:26 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
The ford EDIS-8 system would do the job, just you would no longer have coil on plug, you would have the ford edis style coil and plug wires, still no distributor obviously. Fabbing up the trigger wheel would be the hardest part, but if you check out the megasquirt forums, MANY people have done it.
You do have to watch which trans you are using. If you use the o/d trans that the computer just controls the overdrive gear and the lockup converter, that's peanuts to hook up with an aftermarket efi controller and a little extra circuitry that has been described several times on here. But if your trans is a solenoid/electronically controlled setup, you will need the factory ECU to be hooked up correctly, because as far as a I know, nobody is making a trans control computer for the later mopar o/d's.
Are you sure that I would need Ford coils and plug wires with a Ford EDIS system? I'm under the impression that the EDIS would run the stock 4.7 coils on the plugs with nothing changed coil wise nor any need for plug to coil wires.
As far as transmission controller I was thinking this would do it.
http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html
The info mentions the 45RFE by name and they have a harness for it as well.
As a side not, this appears to be the same box Keisler is using to control their OD autos in their swaps.
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
[Re: wldtm]
#149083
11/18/08 03:27 PM
11/18/08 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Yeah you can do it off the driveshaft. I would really look into the 46rh set up, and use a manual trans dakota controller. I bet for sure it goes into limp in mode. Actually if I have time, I can check my DD is an 02 ram 4.7 rfe. I will try to check that soon.
PS I have done a similar swap with a 5.7 and made my own harness. If you need some help or someone to bounce ideas off of, I like these conversions
Justin
Thanks Justin!
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Re: Stock 4.7/RFE Swap Into 74 B-Body Electrical Details
#149084
11/18/08 04:02 PM
11/18/08 04:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Quote:
Are you sure that I would need Ford coils and plug wires with a Ford EDIS system? I'm under the impression that the EDIS would run the stock 4.7 coils on the plugs with nothing changed coil wise nor any need for plug to coil wires.
As far as transmission controller I was thinking this would do it.
http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html
The info mentions the 45RFE by name and they have a harness for it as well.
As a side not, this appears to be the same box Keisler is using to control their OD autos in their swaps.
Not sure, I have no practical experience with the ford edis system. I've been setting up my efi controller to run the stock distributor just because for me, that was the easy way out. Not sure if edis would run your COP or if you would have to use the edis style 8-in-1 coil w/ conventional plug wires.
If that aftermarket trans computer will work for your setup, you may be in business in that regard. But for the $$$ you'd be paying for it, you'd be better off just getting a RH trans and rebuilding it. I tried that website link, but it was going so slow I just gave up.
Also, even a manual trans dakota engine control computer will require a speed sensor. Speed sensor controls has an effect on many engine control functions on the OEM comptuers. I've seen the maps for the 80's FWD mopar ecu's, and it would take a substantial amount of recoding to phase out the speed sensor even in a manual trans setup. Also, some manual trans controllers have trouble with idling in gear with the load placed on them by and auto trans. A regular auto trans computer will have a signal sent to it telling it the auto trans is in gear, and then it knows to bump the idle speed up a little to compensate. I've heard of some manual trans comptuers stalling the engine during decel/idle when hooked up to an auto trans. And that was with the 80's programming, nevermind how needlessly overcomplicated that was, I can't imaging how nasty the newer coding is.
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