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Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Dodgem] #1473578
07/25/13 03:04 PM
07/25/13 03:04 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

What kind of heads?? You sure the fire wire on the fel pro gaskets is not hanging in the combustion chamber and glowing red hot?? a common problem.

Lean jetting and too low a power valve number can cause light throttle ping too!





Edelbrock aluminum heads. The block bore is 4.35 and the gasket bore is 4.410. Pretty close, but I should be okay there.
Regarding the jetting, I'm running a Demon 850 with 85/92 jets and a 3.5 PV. I'll agree the PV is too small. The knocking I get though is at full throttle.
I have a few other PVs to use in the parts stash.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473579
07/25/13 03:05 PM
07/25/13 03:05 PM
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Vista, California
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67Satty Offline
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There is an article about the straight edge method in the May '97 High Performance Mopar.

They say a Craftsman deep 17mm socket is just a couple thousandths shy of the Mopar lifter bore I.D. and tall enough to protrude so you can lay your straight edge across.

They claim they've double-checked the straight edge method against using a degree wheel and found no difference in results.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: 67Satty] #1473580
07/25/13 03:09 PM
07/25/13 03:09 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I was at Sears yesterday. The Craftsman sockets must have been redesigned since the article came out. The ones I measured were .95 in diameter. I was hoping to try that method.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473581
07/25/13 03:14 PM
07/25/13 03:14 PM
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Vista, California
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67Satty Offline
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You could measure the ID of the lifter bore and then just find whatever deep socket has an OD that will fit in there.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: 67Satty] #1473582
07/25/13 03:17 PM
07/25/13 03:17 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I tried!
I measured all sorts of sockets at Sears. I thought the clerk was going to kick me out.
I measured the impact sockets, the standard chrome sockets, the shallow sockets....
I went to an auto parts store and measured their sockets.
I measured some of my old sockets. Since I'm an American car guy, I had no 17 mm sockets to measure.


Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473583
07/25/13 03:18 PM
07/25/13 03:18 PM
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Quote:

I was at Sears yesterday. The Craftsman sockets must have been redesigned since the article came out. The ones I measured were .95 in diameter. I was hoping to try that method.




You putting new lifters in?

Then use two old lifters glued together to be tall enough, if need be.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Supercuda] #1473584
07/25/13 04:43 PM
07/25/13 04:43 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:

Then use two old lifters glued together to be tall enough.


Exactly what I was thinking


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: RapidRobert] #1473585
07/25/13 05:22 PM
07/25/13 05:22 PM
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The split overlap method is a quick-and-dirty way to get a cam in straight up, works well with camshafts that:
a. have a single pattern lobe, AND
b. have a symmetrical lobe.

Most modern camshafts don't have symmetrical lobes, that is they open the valve quickly and close it a little slower to avoid valve bounce. Plus most aftermarket cams have split duration meaning the exhaust lobe is more duration than the intake.

Split overlap doesn't work so well on those!

R.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473586
07/25/13 09:32 PM
07/25/13 09:32 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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I think it is the edelbrock heads that leave a bit of the fire ring exposed in to places??

I would definatly go with a higher number PV 1.5 to 2 under in gear idle vacuum works out about right on a performance engine. so if you have 8.5 a 6.5 will work if you have 7.5 a 5.5 if you have 10 or 11 a 7.5 as the vacuum gets higher the spread can be more. to small no extra fuel on light to medium acceleration so lean ping.

definetely go the bigger cam it is still small by 493 standards. 4000 stall will help reduce ping too!


O degree the cam right don't try any back yard or back woods red neck short cuts! IMHO!!!!

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Dodgem] #1473587
07/25/13 10:17 PM
07/25/13 10:17 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The Holley site suggested to take the idle vacuum number and use a PV that is 1/2 that number. I was running about 8-9 inches of vacuum at an in gear idle, so I went with the 3.5. I do have several others to try. After the cam swap I'm sure that the idle vacuum will be different. I may have to adjust the idle speed above the 600 rpms in gear! Is it fair to guess that a bigger cam will need a higher numbered Power Valve?

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473588
07/26/13 12:29 AM
07/26/13 12:29 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:

I may have to adjust the idle speed above the 600 rpms in gear! Is it fair to guess that a bigger cam will need a higher numbered Power Valve?


I look at the rpm change from nuetral to in gear, 150 to 200 RPM is good 1000 RPM in nuetral, 800 to 900 in gear As far as the numbers on the power valves, bigger cams idling at lower RPM make less manifold vacume so you should be good with the 3.5 if it has 7.0 or higher vacume inches idling in gear You wouldn't want to try a 6.5 power valve in a motor that has 7.0 inches idling in gear


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Cab_Burge] #1473589
07/26/13 01:14 AM
07/26/13 01:14 AM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

You wouldn't want to try a 6.5 power valve in a motor that has 7.0 inches idling in gear




In 2005 I took the car to a dyno shop. The man recurved the distributor and tweaked the carb. He changed the power valve to a 6.5 too. Much later as I was trying to diagnose an engine smoke issue, I tried the 3.5 PV.
What are the effects of running the higher rated valve? Does it make the engine run leaner during transition from the primaries to the secondaries?

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473590
07/26/13 04:01 AM
07/26/13 04:01 AM
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The power valve enrichens the primary circuit(front two barrels) at the vacume level or below that level the power valve is rated at, a 6.5 power valve will open and stay opened at or below 6.5 inches of vacume, same thing on the 3.5, it will open and stay opened at or belwo 3.5 inches of manifold vacume. IHTHs Some racers use the power valve enrichment channel to add or reduce fuel into that circuit by enlarging or reducing those hole in the metering blocks That is a fine tuning option at WOT


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Cab_Burge] #1473591
07/26/13 04:05 AM
07/26/13 04:05 AM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Seems I can be a little slow sometimes.
This means that by going to the lower rated 3.5 valve, I made the carb run leaner than with the 6.5?

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473592
07/26/13 03:41 PM
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Quote:

Seems I can be a little slow sometimes.
This means that by going to the lower rated 3.5 valve, I made the carb run leaner than with the 6.5?


Not at WOT the 3.5 opens at a lower manifold vacume, both P.V. will be opened at WOT The 6.5 will open sooner at part throotle cruise than the 3.5 will The main thing to check before selecting the power valve to use is to check the manifold vacume with the trans in gear, then select a power valve that is 1 to 2 inches lower than idle vacume I had the same saet of six pak carbs on several different motors, one with abg cam and another with a lot smaller cam, 518 C.I. versus 446 C.i. The big motor wanted a 2.5 P.W., it had 4.5 inches vacume idling in gear at 850 RPM the 446 C.i. motor had over 8.0 inches idling in gear, I found out that the little motor would make vacume in high gear at WOT on a 1/4 mile track making the 2.5 power open and close I put a 6.5 in it and that fixed the problem I had to put the lower(2.5) P.V. back in the center carb for the bigger motor when i put those carbs. back on it Going fast is never easy Be prepared to work and be disappointed some times while you learn


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: RapidRobert] #1473593
07/29/13 08:35 PM
07/29/13 08:35 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

I'm assuming that you are set on the octane you'll use. Yeah, I want the engine to run well on pump premium fuel. Here in CA, we're limited to 91 octane. I want to be able to drive it without having to resort to any sort of octane boosters. What about opening up the chambers (unshrouding the valves on the ends works well for more flow also) or deependng the valve notches or thicker head gaskets if you have no quench I thought of the thicker head gasket idea, but at .056 quench distance, I at least have some quench going on. I'm considering having the heads ported over the winter. I may be way off here but the 509 is an old school wild cam & I cant see that going more wild with a cam will get the the DCR down to where you can run the octane you desire. I agree to a point, but there is more to it. The Lunati has a later intake closing event. This will bleed off some cylinder pressure, reducing the dynamic compression ratio. The goal , and hopefully the result, is to reduce the octane requirements and allow the engine to make more power. Just me I'd feed this monster the octane it wants (& needs) & put the exact cam in there you want for your driving style rather than having to compromise your driveability with a wilder cam to run the inadequate octane you want & I dont think ANY cam is going to lower the DCR enough OR bite the bullet & do it right & lower the SCR & put the corect cam in there to suit your driving. You'll be happier in the long run. Holler how it turns out




I had the engine out in 2011 to deglaze the cylinders and put in new rings. My tuning was waaay off and running too fat for too long wasted the rings. I really should have just replaced the pistons when I had them out. Another idea was to have the valve sides of the pistons milled .040 while leaving the quench side alone. With that, I could run a .027 MLS gasket, gaining quench while still lowering the static compression ratio about 3/10ths of a point.
I just didn't feel like pulling the engine to replace pistons. I've come to understand that a 500 inch engine is UNDERcammed with the '509 anyway.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473594
08/09/13 10:22 PM
08/09/13 10:22 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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It has been awhile, but I'm busy with the project. I'm following the instructions and doing what makes sense, yet I've bent the piston stop twice and the crank hub wont stay tightly in position.
Cranking this engine over isn't easy. As I am leveraging the breaker bar to crank it over, it is hard to determine if the resistance is from the compression OR the piston stop. Am I supposed to take the spark plugs out to allow the engine to spin over easier? I'm pulling them out tomorrow just to see if it helps.
I really didn't want to do a half ass job on this. This is the biggest cam I've ever dealt with and I want to do it right.

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473595
08/09/13 10:30 PM
08/09/13 10:30 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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Maybe get this piston stop. It has an air bleed and is better stronger.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99412-1/overview/


get one of these
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67493

I have this one

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4799


Pull all the spark plugs.
And why not the rockers way less work..

Re: Getting ready to degree a cam for the first time. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473596
08/09/13 10:33 PM
08/09/13 10:33 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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Hope these work many helpfull things i saved
If you buy this total kit has video and instructions
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4796/


another using @ .050 method think it's a ford by where number 1 is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azLX1pi2oVE&feature=related


plus these to read
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_how_to_degree_a_camshaft/

video. I like to do the @ .050 but often do both a little extra advance especially on street or heavy cars is a big plus! depending on the cam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VwsbEg7Z4I&feature=related


another one using .50 before and after max lift method (i do them all :-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=bcMuttJ9RFc&NR=1

some info! try not to get informatoin overload
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cambasics.htm


Generally in theory they are 0 + 4 and - 4 deg as always a cam should really be degreed in for best performance as they are all over the place with the stacking effect of the crank key, cam key/dowel, bottom gear Keyways and placement of dowel hole or keyway in top gear.

Hear is instructions for a comp cam 3 keyway set
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/cca-2100.pdf

I just did a 509 that was 7 deg retarded form spec in straight up position the + 4 postion got it withing .5 deg 106.5 on 106 suggested install it was a 4 speed 4.56 gear so runs great but on an auto i would have liked 102 to 104 for better bottom end.

Degreeing in you cam even if you buy a a kit the peformance is day and night when off a few degrees from optimum
kits
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66787/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4796/overview/

instructions
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/pro-66787_camshaftdegreewheelkit.pdf

Re: Degreeing a cam for the first time. What a PITA. [Re: Kern Dog] #1473597
08/09/13 10:57 PM
08/09/13 10:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,458
Morristown Tn.
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71birdJ68 Offline
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Did you have detonation or pre ignition?

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