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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: Dixie]
#1472099
07/22/13 02:15 PM
07/22/13 02:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Only a few cam lobes show pitting, wouldn't a failure to break it in, take out all the lobes? And faster than a thousand miles?
Just a small amount of hardness difference in the lifters can
cause some to fail and not others... your cam is gonna
have to come out... I hope your cam company will work
with you on this
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1472103
07/23/13 02:33 PM
07/23/13 02:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
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Quote:
Ok, here comes the inevitable question... What oil did you use? Any additives?
Oh yeah, I used good oil with zinc additives. Valvoline VR-1 Racing at first, then the cam supplier told me 20/50 was not good and to switch to 10/30. LOL. I did it, just to appease him and the problem still occurred. The 10/30 was Royal Purple (on sale cheap at Amazon at the time with free shipping and on tax) with yet more zinc additives.
I pulled the cam this AM and it has pits at the top of most of the cam lobes. I'll post some pics later.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: Dixie]
#1472109
07/23/13 05:21 PM
07/23/13 05:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
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I called Engle direct since the guy I got the cam from claims there is no issue with the cam. Engle said there is no warranty and they won't do anything. Engle said they don't make lifters, they buy from another source. Supposedly, high quality Made in the USA ones.  So, the guy I got the cam from says, the cam is fine and he'd run it. Would you guys run this? The lobe pics are representative of most of the lobes on the cam.
Last edited by Dixie; 07/23/13 05:28 PM.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1472114
07/23/13 07:16 PM
07/23/13 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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IT IS NOT A METALLURGY PROBLEM!
It is a lubrication failure. It happens when the pressure between cam and lifter (or gear teeth) exceeds the oil's film strength. The oil film ruptures, microwelding occurs, then tears apart, leaving those pits.
Similar pictures are found in every textbook on lubrication and assessing failures.
No, I wouldn't run the cam, it is shot.
Unfortunately for engine builders, lifter acceleration is generally increasing while lubricant antiwear/EP properties are decreasing. Thus, the plethora of camshaft failures. This is made even worse by the necessity of using higher valvespring pressures with the more extreme lifter acceleration values.
Welcome to the world of high performance. No cam manufacturer will warranty such a failure, except Hughes says they will IF you follow their directions exactly.
The faster you want to go the more you will discover there are costs for every advancement. Ain't pretty, but it's true.
R.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: 5spdcuda]
#1472116
07/23/13 10:51 PM
07/23/13 10:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
dennismopar73
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I won't ever claim to be exspert on wearing of cam lobes, But seeing ,or what I can see is the ramp doesn't look to bad , but the top being knocked off and worn tells me I would look at the springs, something that I see is not enough open pressure! again just my little take on what I see! I have seen guys use what the cam calls for that are just at the min requirements and the builder say yeah good to go, but after the springs are run thru a few heat cycles they are actually short on open pressure! I always tend to look at the long hall when it comes to valve gearing, I never want to be at the min , but I do not want to be way over either, , When you start seeing the use of shims to get the springs to the right pressure, your asking for issue . J M O 
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: dennismopar73]
#1472117
07/23/13 11:26 PM
07/23/13 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
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The way I see, it is your cam guy, the one you trust in this situation doesn't like you to much. Is he also your engine builder? Looking to get a few more bucks out of you? Run that cam and lifters? what the heck's with that guy. What ever the reason , your cam and maybe your bearings are shot. I would cut open you oil filter, see how much metal is inside, and plan on pulling the engine down. Good lick.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: Dixie]
#1472118
07/24/13 01:40 AM
07/24/13 01:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
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Quote:
Guys,
I have an engine with roughly 1000 miles on it. I have had a problem with a lifter(s) ticking for about the last 500 or so miles. I've worked with the cam supplier to try and troubleshoot it, but nothing seemed to work. I finally pulled the intake and lifters. The lifters appear to not have been hardened properly by the wear marks and pits on the bottom of some of them. The cam is showing pits on a couple of the lobes. I have not removed it yet, but will Tuesday. From the attached pic, does this look normal for an engine with such low mileage? I sent a ton of pics of the lifters to the cam supplier and am waiting his response. I'm wondering what you guys think as I'm no expert and would appreciate your thoughts.
one of the biggest problems with camshaft failure is due to the lifter not spinning in its bore .all flat tappet cams/lifters are ground at an angle which causes the lifter to spin. the second biggest problem is china made lifters which are not properly hardened or poorly ground. Do not - think - a big name cam company will not use/offer/sell some china made lifters , they do. a thin oil for break in is a good thing as all parts are free to move when cold started. if the lifters spin but - very - slowly , they may last for some time with good oil. your lifters can be measured to check the face angles and hardness. How did the cam tech check this by phone? comp cams does send a warranty registration card with each cam. if you have an issue ,you can ship it back to be checked out. I doubt it will matter much though.. 
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: 5spdcuda]
#1472121
07/24/13 09:35 PM
07/24/13 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
OP
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OP
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Quote:
Thanks for the spring info. I certainly don't think your spring pressures are excessive, very similar to my own. In fact my open pressures are a bit higher. I agree with the others, your cam is toast. The only things I would use it for would be a doorstop or slotting the bearing journals and using it to clearance cam bearings. I am not sure how you want to go from here.It certainly dosen't sound like either Engle or your engine man is going to help. FWIW my last two cams have been Comp hyd flat tappet XE grinds and they both worked fine. The last one is a 285 XE HL series that I had nitrided for a little extra insurance. I used Joe Gibbs break in oil [ at my machine shop's request ] and I use Brad Penn post break in.
I went with a Comp Cams package XE268H. BTW, it comes with a warranty card. SO much for the no one warranty's their cams comment from the cam supplier.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: ek3]
#1472122
07/24/13 09:53 PM
07/24/13 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
OP
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OP
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Quote:
Quote:
Guys,
I have an engine with roughly 1000 miles on it. I have had a problem with a lifter(s) ticking for about the last 500 or so miles. I've worked with the cam supplier to try and troubleshoot it, but nothing seemed to work. I finally pulled the intake and lifters. The lifters appear to not have been hardened properly by the wear marks and pits on the bottom of some of them. The cam is showing pits on a couple of the lobes. I have not removed it yet, but will Tuesday. From the attached pic, does this look normal for an engine with such low mileage? I sent a ton of pics of the lifters to the cam supplier and am waiting his response. I'm wondering what you guys think as I'm no expert and would appreciate your thoughts.
one of the biggest problems with camshaft failure is due to the lifter not spinning in its bore .all flat tappet cams/lifters are ground at an angle which causes the lifter to spin. the second biggest problem is china made lifters which are not properly hardened or poorly ground. Do not - think - a big name cam company will not use/offer/sell some china made lifters , they do. a thin oil for break in is a good thing as all parts are free to move when cold started. if the lifters spin but - very - slowly , they may last for some time with good oil. your lifters can be measured to check the face angles and hardness. How did the cam tech check this by phone? comp cams does send a warranty registration card with each cam. if you have an issue ,you can ship it back to be checked out. I doubt it will matter much though..
Engle said they use a quality Made in the USA lifter. My engine builder (who I did not buy the cam from) said the cam wasn't properly hardened and that's what caused the failure. He hates Engle and said he quit using them years ago for the same problem. He didn't want me to run this cam to begin with, but I wanted to run it. I had heard good things about Bob Karakashian’s cheater cams. From a performance perspective, I was happy. It was the danged loud ticking lifters I couldn't live with. Glad I decided to check them before things went really south.
The cam tech at Engle wasn't interested in checking anything. It was customer no service all the way.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: Dixie]
#1472123
07/24/13 09:59 PM
07/24/13 09:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
5spdcuda
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Good luck, so far the Comp stuff has worked for me. I think they are the only company to offer in house nitriding. It's not cheap. They consider nitriding to be a custom order.The plus side to that is if you want any other changes to the "shelf" grind they will do it at no additional charge. As for possible metallurgy issues, it's my understanding that there only a very small number of companies that make cam blanks and that all the cam grinders buy from one of them so unless the cam grinder screws up and cuts a lobe past the hardened area it's unlikely that any one company's cams are inherently junk. Lifters are another matter. Since the OEMs quit using flat tappets over twenty years ago the number of companies willing and able to produce a quality lifter for a niche market has become quite small. Regarding your engine builder's comments about Engle cams, I suppose it's possible that they either buy inferior blanks from someone or in an attempt to grind an especially aggressive lobe they cut through the blank's hardening. All I know is that Engle is one of the older cam companies and at one time they had an excellent reputation. Don't know anything about them today.
Last edited by 5spdcuda; 07/24/13 10:07 PM.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: 74yellowduster]
#1472124
07/24/13 10:02 PM
07/24/13 10:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
OP
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Quote:
if... your oil pump was new, and you had good oil pressure, & if you used cam prelube, and you dont have any oiling system problems
then
engle cams are junk and that vendor you have been working with (worked over by) needs to be sued.
what kind of oiling system mods have you done (if any) and what kind of rockers and oil pump are you using? i'm assuming you used normal certified oil and not some straight weight.
Yes sir, good pump, good pressure, used good oil with zinc. No oiling system mods. Running Crane adjustable rockers, Melling oil pump. Started with 20/50 oil, then went to 10/30 per Bob's request.
I installed the Comp cam today and broke it in per their instructions. Everything seems fine, runs like it should. Didn't have a chance to take it out and beat on it, hopefully I can in the next week or so.
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: dogdays]
#1472125
07/24/13 10:23 PM
07/24/13 10:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
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Az
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Quote:
IT IS NOT A METALLURGY PROBLEM!
It is a lubrication failure. It happens when the pressure between cam and lifter (or gear teeth) exceeds the oil's film strength. The oil film ruptures, microwelding occurs, then tears apart, leaving those pits.
Similar pictures are found in every textbook on lubrication and assessing failures.
No, I wouldn't run the cam, it is shot.
Unfortunately for engine builders, lifter acceleration is generally increasing while lubricant antiwear/EP properties are decreasing. Thus, the plethora of camshaft failures. This is made even worse by the necessity of using higher valvespring pressures with the more extreme lifter acceleration values.
Welcome to the world of high performance. No cam manufacturer will warranty such a failure, except Hughes says they will IF you follow their directions exactly.
The faster you want to go the more you will discover there are costs for every advancement. Ain't pretty, but it's true.
R.
 on the lube failure being the problem. Spring pressure isn't an issue and they look like they were rotating just fine. Damage could have occurred within the first few minutes of start up  .
Fastest 300
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Re: Question on Cam/lifter failure
[Re: Dixie]
#1472126
07/25/13 02:40 AM
07/25/13 02:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
top fuel
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Quote:
Guys,
I have an engine with roughly 1000 miles on it. I have had a problem with a lifter(s) ticking for about the last 500 or so miles. I've worked with the cam supplier to try and troubleshoot it, but nothing seemed to work. I finally pulled the intake and lifters. The lifters appear to not have been hardened properly by the wear marks and pits on the bottom of some of them. The cam is showing pits on a couple of the lobes. I have not removed it yet, but will Tuesday. From the attached pic, does this look normal for an engine with such low mileage? I sent a ton of pics of the lifters to the cam supplier and am waiting his response. I'm wondering what you guys think as I'm no expert and would appreciate your thoughts.
the lifter in your photo was galling due to lack of sufficient oiling or lack of -proper- rotation in its bore. if the lifter completely stops rotating ,it will wear in 1 direction and cup the lifter bottom.the cam is cut at an angle and the lifter has a radius on its bottom. if either the angle or radius was off , the lifter will not spin - properly - causing heat to build up and thus flaking the metal away starting at the highest center point on the lifter as you can see. if it were a cam hardness issue, all lobes would be damaged as the entire cam is hardened at one time as a blank. my money is on the lifters being china's junk . either bad metal or the most probable - poor machine tolerances. otherwise it was not getting lube .it sounds like the engine/cam made it from initial break in to 500 miles without lifter ticking, then slowly went downhill.
Last edited by ek3; 07/25/13 02:54 AM.
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