Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468569
07/15/13 11:14 PM
07/15/13 11:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,861 Gloucester,VA STOP MOVING HERE
RangerDan440
I Live Here
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there was a great 10 page thread on electric fans VS clutch fans but I cant find it. good info here though Ive tried both electric puller and pusher fans on my 68 Coronet and would up staying with the OE 7 blade clutch fan. Cools better than the electrics, it didn't kill my battery and any power loss is negligible.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468573
07/16/13 08:07 AM
07/16/13 08:07 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
Thanks guys, that gives me enough info to stay with a clutch type fan. Now all I need is a shroud that will fit.
The shroud is what will make a huge difference in the effectiveness of any cooling solution so get one that covers the entire radiator tightly. This is what will force the air through the radiator and not allow it to circumvent it. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
Nothing wrong with a mechanical fan but I am not sure why everyone here has so many issues with electric fans. If you spend the money to get a good set and install them correctly, no reason hey won't cool just fine. There was a thread on this and they found around an average 20hp loss (@ higher RPM) with a mechanical fan vs. electric. Not huge but I wouldn't say negligible either. However, making sure the charging system is up to the task is critical or you are creating new problems.
FWIW I have dual 11" pullers on my Summit aluminum radiator and it keeps my 499 stroker cool (< 195*) on a 95* day, in traffic, with A/C on.
I am not trying to change your mind here but this "electric fans won't cool enough" is bogus. If that was the case, then modern day cars would still be running mechanical fans. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468574
07/16/13 08:25 AM
07/16/13 08:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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I use a factory 7 blade "213" clutch fan on both my cars with a shroud. It stays cool in 115 degree heat in Vegas and there's enough air being sucked through it to keep my R134 AC working at idle. I have tried a electric fan on forktruck here at work and it could not keep up with the old mechanical fan and would allow my forklift to overheat. I've read too many threads here on electric fans that don't work well enough without using a huge one with a controller and a large alternator and heavy wiring. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468575
07/16/13 03:49 PM
07/16/13 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,450 So Cal
Sinitro
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So Cal
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Incredible so many guys fall for the electric fans.. Thinking they are a fix for cooling issues.. Chrysler overdesigned their OE cooling systems... Unless someone is running a 700HP race motor on the street, lives in the desert and does alot of stop/go it should work fine provided the engine cooling passages and radiator are kleer.. Also alot of the reported cooling issues are due to improper setups for timing and/or fuel.. Just my $0.02.. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1468576
07/16/13 04:21 PM
07/16/13 04:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,078 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,078
Irving, TX
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If an electric fan is used for primary cooling it needs to be substantial. If it doesn't pull at least 30 amps it isn't going to do the job. Forget all those cheesy AutoZone 20 amp fans and their more expensive relatives sold by more reputable stores. If a fan is going to hard work it is going to pull hard current.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Sinitro]
#1468577
07/16/13 04:35 PM
07/16/13 04:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880 -
RSNOMO
Moparts Torchbearer
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Moparts Torchbearer
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880
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Quote:
Incredible so many guys fall for the electric fans.. Thinking they are a fix for cooling issues.. Chrysler overdesigned their OE cooling systems... Unless someone is running a 700HP race motor on the street, lives in the desert and does alot of stop/go it should work fine provided the engine cooling passages and radiator are kleer.. Also alot of the reported cooling issues are due to improper setups for timing and/or fuel..
Absolutely spot-on...
Been in 95+ numerous times...Rolling and in traffic...
3-core 26" rad, A/C fan(with viscous), shroud, A/C water pump...
Never gone beyond 180...
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: RSNOMO]
#1468578
07/16/13 08:46 PM
07/16/13 08:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,912 Athens, Greece
Pyper70
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Athens, Greece
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I have a 4-core radiator and still use the 7-blade Viscous clutch. I have a 160º thermostat....I have often wondered about removing the viscous fan and replacing it but I stay with the mechanical simply because it wont ever fail unless you lose a belt. I did install a 14" SPAL pusher fan on the front of the radiator and hooked up to a on/off switch. I havent run her HARD this summer but she is doing well so far in 95º weather
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468579
07/16/13 09:13 PM
07/16/13 09:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 862 Iowa State fan
kilroy
super stock
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super stock
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Iowa State fan
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks guys, that gives me enough info to stay with a clutch type fan. Now all I need is a shroud that will fit.
The shroud is what will make a huge difference in the effectiveness of any cooling solution so get one that covers the entire radiator tightly. This is what will force the air through the radiator and not allow it to circumvent it. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
Nothing wrong with a mechanical fan but I am not sure why everyone here has so many issues with electric fans. If you spend the money to get a good set and install them correctly, no reason hey won't cool just fine. There was a thread on this and they found around an average 20hp loss (@ higher RPM) with a mechanical fan vs. electric. Not huge but I wouldn't say negligible either. However, making sure the charging system is up to the task is critical or you are creating new problems.
FWIW I have dual 11" pullers on my Summit aluminum radiator and it keeps my 499 stroker cool (< 195*) on a 95* day, in traffic, with A/C on.
I am not trying to change your mind here but this "electric fans won't cool enough" is bogus. If that was the case, then modern day cars would still be running mechanical fans.
LOLOLOLOL but but your not staying with the herd, cull and send him off to slaughter LOL. So true.
1973 Charger, former SE, former auto
I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Supercuda]
#1468581
07/16/13 09:56 PM
07/16/13 09:56 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
The use of electric fans in modern vehicles has nothing to do with cooling. If you wish to use an example to support your position make sure it's relevant.
I never said the use of electric fans has anything to do with cooling better than mechanical fans. I stated that they CAN cool an engine just fine (despite what some here may say)or they wouldn't be used in modern cars. Please read carefully before you put your foot in your mouth. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif)
The article they had referenced on a thread here a few months ago had a 440 dyno'd with the OE type mechanical fan setup and then using electric fans. At higher RPM's, it was about an 18-22 hp difference at the rear wheels so I would argue that it is not a negligible difference between the two in terms of parasitic loss.
My fans pull 20 amps (measured with clamp gauges) and are rated at 2700 CFM. I only run them with a stat (195 degree on 175 off)...no controller per se. Idling in traffic, they can come on for a minute and you can watch the temp needle drop and they will eventually pull it down enough to shut off.
I'm not bashing mechanical fan setups here at all. I think the OE setup works great for raw cooling. I wanted the advantages of a cleaner looking engine compartment and the extra HP freed up. When I first got my Charger, the OEM fan was in bad shape, shroud broken, etc so I had to re-do the entire cooling system anyway...I went electric.
I just wanted to point out that a well thought out (and not cheap) electric fan setup can cool just fine. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: justinp61]
#1468586
07/17/13 08:04 AM
07/17/13 08:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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pro stock
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Quote:
It looks like only 7 hp between the best thermal clutch fan and the electric. I'll stay with my tried and true MP fan kit.
That wasn't the article I was referring to. The test in the linked article was done with a SBC.
I can't find it now of course but I want to say it was Mopar Action or Muscle that did a similar test on a warmed up 440 in a Challenger (I think). They had a chart of the hp/tq numbers which showed the loss increased as the RPM's rose which makes sense. IIRC by 5000 RPM the loss was right at ~20 HP at the rear wheels with a clutch fan vs. an electric.
That being said, if you have a fully working mechanical setup, I wouldn't jump to electric just for the gains but it is a plus IMHO. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: forphorty]
#1468587
07/17/13 08:45 AM
07/17/13 08:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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4th post in this older post has Chrysler and GM values for the horsepower of clutch fans, alternators, etc https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=6599970It is worth remembering that the lower horsepower consumed by an electric fan at full throttle can not last more than a minute or so, beause the engine will overheat. The clutch fan is designed for continuous cooling at full power output, such as pulling a heavy trailer up a 6% grade in Death Valley in 100 degree heat, which is the traditional fan capacity road testing site for vehicles sold in North America.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: 360view]
#1468588
07/17/13 09:17 AM
07/17/13 09:17 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
It is worth remembering that the lower horsepower consumed by an electric fan at full throttle can not last more than a minute or so, beause the engine will overheat.
Explain this please. If your car is at full throttle most likely it's moving quite quickly, then the radiator is doing most of the cooling and not the fan as it's not needed to get airflow.
A clutch fan would be slipping at higher RPM's anyways..so how's this different than an electric fan?
I can see if you were going up a steep mountain with a large load in first gear moving slowly at high rev's where the additional air flow potential of a mechanical fan would be useful. How many here are towing large loads up mountains in Death Valley with their classic Mopars here? Even so, if that were a concern, you can install bigger electric fans to deal with these extreme circumstances.
I'm not advocating one is better than the other here...I see pros and cons to each. I just object to people who spread misinformation like "you won't be able to effectively cool your engine with electric fans...just go clutch".
IDK...maybe I'm just the one lucky SOB here who has an engine that cools just fine with electric fans? ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shruggy.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468589
07/17/13 12:18 PM
07/17/13 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
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Quote:
Quote:
It is worth remembering that the lower horsepower consumed by an electric fan at full throttle can not last more than a minute or so, beause the engine will overheat.
Explain this please. If your car is at full throttle most likely it's moving quite quickly, then the radiator is doing most of the cooling and not the fan as it's not needed to get airflow.
A clutch fan would be slipping at higher RPM's anyways..so how's this different than an electric fan?
I can see if you were going up a steep mountain with a large load in first gear moving slowly at high rev's where the additional air flow potential of a mechanical fan would be useful. How many here are towing large loads up mountains in Death Valley with their classic Mopars here? Even so, if that were a concern, you can install bigger electric fans to deal with these extreme circumstances.
I'm not advocating one is better than the other here...I see pros and cons to each. I just object to people who spread misinformation like "you won't be able to effectively cool your engine with electric fans...just go clutch".
IDK...maybe I'm just the one lucky SOB here who has an engine that cools just fine with electric fans?
At highway speeds you should be able to remove the fan completely and the engine will still stay cool. I have run many cars/trucks with the mechanical fan completely removed (no fan at all) and the only time they would get hot was in slow moving/stopped traffic. My 68 cuda when it had the 402 stroked 318, my 2000 ram, 2000 dakota, 86 5th ave... and none of them got hot pulling trailers up mountain passes in 100+ heat. You can feel a big difference in power when you ditch them.
I have not found any aftermarket fans that would keep the big motors cool at idle, got to get a good OEM unit.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: RangerDan440]
#1468592
07/17/13 02:27 PM
07/17/13 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
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Quote:
why is this such a "heated" debate? ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif)
I kill me
![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif)
Perhaps we need to cool it down a bit... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stirthepot.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: RangerDan440]
#1468594
07/17/13 03:59 PM
07/17/13 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,450 So Cal
Sinitro
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Posts: 5,450
So Cal
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Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif) Just my $0.02... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Sinitro]
#1468595
07/17/13 04:10 PM
07/17/13 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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Quote:
Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tsk.gif)
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468597
07/17/13 09:40 PM
07/17/13 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 95 United States
tee-john
OP
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Quote:
Thanks guys, that gives me enough info to stay with a clutch type fan. Now all I need is a shroud that will fit.
I am having terrible clearance issues between my water pump nose and the electric fan center hub. I don't want to cut up my car to shim the radiator forward. My car did run at my thermostat range in south LA in summer time even without a shroud. It is a champion 4 core which I am satisfied with. I had to do some engine work and other things so that's why I am trying to change up a bit. But , I did go through 4 water pumps in less than 2000 miles. Some guys say it may be my clutch fan out of wack or belt to tight. IDK. My water pumps were all milodon. This is the Grim Reaper Barracuda from Florida. Yea it's killin me. I am a Cajun and I do have a double barrel 12 gauge in the shop but I just can't shoot the car yet. Lol. Jk to the sensitive ones.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Sinitro]
#1468598
07/17/13 10:12 PM
07/17/13 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,537 Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,537
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Just my $0.02...
...and it is uNcredible that you did not mention how little the electrics have to stay on during normal driving ... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468599
07/17/13 10:43 PM
07/17/13 10:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tsk.gif)
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
I wouldn't call that "well planned" if your car discharges at idle with everything on. That's not any good.
I recently installed a 99 amp powermaster alt in my ride. Made a huge improvement and it put's out good down low. I also put my lights and AC on relays and my lights stay bright at idle now, 13.9-14.1 volts bright at idle with the new alt. I can't stand when a car discharges at night and the headlites dim. I always kept my foot on the gas some to keep the Rs up so my headlites stayed on. No more.
I think this powermaster could handle a 30 amp fan at idle?? Don't know it might be a problem? ![](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b260/challenger19711/After%202-22-2013/SDC18950.jpg)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1468600
07/18/13 08:18 AM
07/18/13 08:18 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tsk.gif)
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
I wouldn't call that "well planned" if your car discharges at idle with everything on. That's not any good.
I recently installed a 99 amp powermaster alt in my ride. Made a huge improvement and it put's out good down low. I also put my lights and AC on relays and my lights stay bright at idle now, 13.9-14.1 volts bright at idle with the new alt. I can't stand when a car discharges at night and the headlites dim. I always kept my foot on the gas some to keep the Rs up so my headlites stayed on. No more.
I think this powermaster could handle a 30 amp fan at idle?? Don't know it might be a problem?
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468601
07/18/13 10:28 AM
07/18/13 10:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
Well, that explains it.
Dummy down "well planned" till it fits your situation then call it good enough. Why don't you turn up your idle speed or get a smaller alternator pulley and fix your "well planned" setup.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Supercuda]
#1468602
07/18/13 11:25 AM
07/18/13 11:25 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526 North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
Well, that explains it.
Dummy down "well planned" till it fits your situation then call it good enough. Why don't you turn up your idle speed or get a smaller alternator pulley and fix your "well planned" setup.
Wow tough crowd here. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
So everything is a compromise, right? I don't want a giant honken obviously aftermarket alternator on my car. It would be wonderful to have a factory appearing alternator that put out 120 amps at idle but such a thing doesn't exist to my knowledge.
The discharge doesn't endanger my wiring or affect my drivability so I am satisfied with how it works for me. It is way better than factory which many people here deal with all the time.
So it's not 'dumbing down', it's your opinion that my setup isn't 'good enough' to be 'well-planned' apparently.
Also good luck finding a smaller double-groove pulley for the alternator. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468603
07/18/13 02:25 PM
07/18/13 02:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,450 So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,450
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Just my $0.02...
Quote:
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tsk.gif)
OK lets do a little caculation.. The mechanical fan draws 10 HP, and the alternator driving electric fans draws 8 HP so one loses 2HP.. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Quote:
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
Isn't that the advantage of a clutch fan, no draw when cruisin down the road..
Quote:
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
If one needs 100 Amps than definitely an well-planned upgrade is required.. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/apimp.gif)
Just my $0.02... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468606
07/18/13 07:47 PM
07/18/13 07:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyes.gif)
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tsk.gif)
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
I wouldn't call that "well planned" if your car discharges at idle with everything on. That's not any good.
I recently installed a 99 amp powermaster alt in my ride. Made a huge improvement and it put's out good down low. I also put my lights and AC on relays and my lights stay bright at idle now, 13.9-14.1 volts bright at idle with the new alt. I can't stand when a car discharges at night and the headlites dim. I always kept my foot on the gas some to keep the Rs up so my headlites stayed on. No more.
I think this powermaster could handle a 30 amp fan at idle?? Don't know it might be a problem?
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
I bet your right, that's why I run a mechanical clutch fan that has been bullet proof for me.
FWIW back in the 80s I had a 340 challenger that overheated. It was a black 72 without AC. That car was cursed and all my friends hated it because I also had starter issues and they had to push start me all the time and the car was black and hot. After about a year of that non sense I figured out that the clutch was bad on my fan. After I replaced it my overheating went completely away.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468608
07/18/13 11:47 PM
07/18/13 11:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 95 United States
tee-john
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 95
United States
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Quote:
Thanks guys, that gives me enough info to stay with a clutch type fan. Now all I need is a shroud that will fit.
But now the decision is which one to use. I see the MP Vicious 5 blade Fan package and the Flex a lite 6 blade fan with the thermal clutch. Then also there is the standard mechanical clutch. I know that it's not a great big deal, but I would like to hear more input on these 2 types of fan packages. I'm not sold on the flex fan because I hear that they are very noisy and may fall apart. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shruggy.gif)
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: 360view]
#1468609
07/19/13 08:57 AM
07/19/13 08:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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what heavy trucks are doing... http://fleetowner.com/equipment/behr-s-visco-technology-diesel-engines-promises-fuel-savingssample quote Variable-speed Visco fan drives for truck engines have been available since the 1970s, but this is the industry’s first coolant-pump application. Heavy-truck coolant pumps today are almost exclusively tied linearly to engine-speed via belt drives. Since these pumps are designed to meet coolant requirements under maximum load conditions, flow rates at many operating points exceed actual need with a resulting drain on fuel economy. Behr’s trademarked Visco technology covers variable-speed, fuel-saving air- and coolant-flow products by hydraulically isolating engine-input speeds and minimizing power consumption under high-speed operation and light-engine loads where maximum flow rates are not required. The Visco pump’s control logic is embedded in an engine-control module. Although the pump is tied to a belt drive, energy is transferred hydraulically to an impeller. The amount of energy transfer depends on the amount of silicone oil in an operating chamber managed through a closed-loop control system. The fully variable-speed Visco clutch operation allows for precise coolant flow rates. Continuous impeller-speed feedback is the key to providing immediate coolant flow adjustments when required by engine conditions. The Visco coolant pump is designed for the life of the vehicle and does not require periodic maintenance. Estimated fuel-economy savings of 1% for long-haul truck applications is based on average engine power of 100 kW.
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