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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Jeepmon]
#1423871
04/22/13 08:38 PM
04/22/13 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I'm no TC guy but you still want it to stall at about 200 to 300 rpm above peak torque rpm to utilize your torque... it seems that the larger TC has less slippage once its up to stall as in 3% or so... basically you have to hope the TC guys does it right... I'm not gonna get into who is the best because thats more of a personal preference because it worked with their application 
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: CHAPPER]
#1423874
04/22/13 09:13 PM
04/22/13 09:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Listen to ATI 
That other dude is prolly runnin a " J " conveter and a purple shaft cam 
 What's wrong with a J convertor... 
Hopefully nothing... I have a J conv in the Rampage
and talked to Paul on it to find out the stall.. with
500 ft lbs at my weight it should stall at 5000
but Paul didnt know much about using it with a OD
so he guessed it might have as much as 10% slippage
when in OD.. I'll see what happens in a month
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: 340RICK]
#1423875
04/22/13 09:48 PM
04/22/13 09:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
Listen to ATI
That other dude is prolly runnin a " J " conveter and a purple shaft cam
My money is on a glide and an 8" and a VERY fast car..(not mine BTW)
Chris.. 
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#1423876
04/22/13 10:05 PM
04/22/13 10:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,023
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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I Live Here
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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The techs at ATI would be the people to listen to. Lupo set me up with a 9 inch, and was able to adjust it from 5500 to 6500 rpm, quite a spread. I run 528 cubes, peak torque at 5100 rpm. A big motor like yours needs a big core to lock up according to Lupo, and I can understand that. At some point, you can only get a converter so tight, putting the 8 inch in the possibly "too loose" category with a high torque combo like yours. His statement was the larger core allows tighter lockup on the top end for better efficiency on bigger motors.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Jeepmon]
#1423878
04/23/13 02:35 AM
04/23/13 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,388
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,388
Las Vegas
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My questions for most of the guys here are
1)How do you know you have the best possible converter in your car? Who's judgement are you using to make this conclusion. just trusting the converter guy are keeping records and maximizing each piece?
2) How many of you are willing to spend the money and take the time to make sure you have the EXACT right converter for your car?
IMO they ONLY way to know this is to experiment and be willing to spend money and take the time to try out different pieces. ANYTHING else is simple an educated guess. I have been around enough race cars and seen this WAY to many times. Guys THINK they have the perfect piece only to find out they are leaving ET and MPH on the table.
I can tell you from my experience with my last 4 BB Mopar engines that they ALL worked better with an 8" than with a 9" converter. This is not just the case in my car, it has been the case with customers cars as well. FWIW the last piece that was right in my hoopty was an 8" ATI that only stalled 6600 and had 3% slip. Oh yeah went to 8 S/ST finals with it so I guess it worked ok...
Converter companies do not always get it right the first time but most companies can get it right the second time. There is an old standard that says use the biggest core you can that will acheive the desired stall speed. There are a ton a variables that can affect which size core will work best. Every company seems to have their "magic" combination, or their go to stuff for certain engine combos. Finding someone who is willing to make sure you get the right piece is what you need to be after here. Dont get dissapointed if it is not perfect the first time. Remember this is all theory until you put it in the car and go down the track.
Oh yeah. Be careful who you allow to cut your stuff open for inspection when thereis a problem. I learned that very expensive lesson just recently. I had two converters cut open for inspection after a trans failure. Now in my opinion BOTH are junk for my combination. They both came back tighter than they were before. One 500-600 the other 1400!!! I will make do with one of them the rest of the year but will be starting over after that in search of the elusive "magic" combination. Sure hope it dont take nearly as many $$$ as last time.
One last topic for discussion. What do you all feel is the best/most consitent type of converter to have, loose or tight?
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1423879
04/23/13 03:18 AM
04/23/13 03:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
My questions for most of the guys here are
1)How do you know you have the best possible converter in your car? Who's judgement are you using to make this conclusion. just trusting the converter guy are keeping records and maximizing each piece?
2) How many of you are willing to spend the money and take the time to make sure you have the EXACT right converter for your car?
IMO they ONLY way to know this is to experiment and be willing to spend money and take the time to try out different pieces. ANYTHING else is simple an educated guess. I have been around enough race cars and seen this WAY to many times. Guys THINK they have the perfect piece only to find out they are leaving ET and MPH on the table.
I can tell you from my experience with my last 4 BB Mopar engines that they ALL worked better with an 8" than with a 9" converter. This is not just the case in my car, it has been the case with customers cars as well. FWIW the last piece that was right in my hoopty was an 8" ATI that only stalled 6600 and had 3% slip. Oh yeah went to 8 S/ST finals with it so I guess it worked ok...
Converter companies do not always get it right the first time but most companies can get it right the second time. There is an old standard that says use the biggest core you can that will acheive the desired stall speed. There are a ton a variables that can affect which size core will work best. Every company seems to have their "magic" combination, or their go to stuff for certain engine combos. Finding someone who is willing to make sure you get the right piece is what you need to be after here. Dont get dissapointed if it is not perfect the first time. Remember this is all theory until you put it in the car and go down the track.
Oh yeah. Be careful who you allow to cut your stuff open for inspection when thereis a problem. I learned that very expensive lesson just recently. I had two converters cut open for inspection after a trans failure. Now in my opinion BOTH are junk for my combination. They both came back tighter than they were before. One 500-600 the other 1400!!! I will make do with one of them the rest of the year but will be starting over after that in search of the elusive "magic" combination. Sure hope it dont take nearly as many $$$ as last time. (NAILED it on the head!!)
One last topic for discussion. What do you all feel is the best/most consitent type of converter to have, loose or tight?
Thats opening a can of worms,but I'm sure you knew that.
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1423880
04/23/13 03:28 AM
04/23/13 03:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,023
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,023
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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My choice-loose. Tire slippage starts the lock up proccess earlier, (from what I am told) so a loose converter actually pulls a tad harder , offsetting the loss from spin. This works well with my Torqueflite.
All I know about consistancy is from my limited experience, but the numbers look pretty good, with 330 marks almost dead on, same day.
As far as how close I am to the right converter, I will never know for sure. I would bet that the average combo would need ten or more trys probably using three converters, putting the best to date on the shelf so it is STILL the best. Most of us can't afford the expense of testing like that.
So how do I know I am even close? My dyno guys other cars, as a referance to true hp numbers off his dyno, and also comparing my setup to others similar. I think I got reasonably lucky on all accounts.
Al, how many of those cars were running Torqueflites?
Last edited by gregsdart; 04/23/13 03:38 AM.
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: gregsdart]
#1423881
04/23/13 03:31 AM
04/23/13 03:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,388
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,388
Las Vegas
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I am not trying to cast anyh stones here. Just asking the question so maybe we can all learn something. Does not matter what part we are talking about the only way to know it is perfect for the combo is by trying different pieces.
maybe it is just that this converter thing is a sore subject for me. In my car we have yet to find the "magic bullet" I had one that worked very well on the stop but have yet to find one that is perfect for the car all out. They have all been WAY tight, by different manufactures with dyno info. And now having had my two best pieces ruined by a trans/converter company and after hearing some of the BS from their guy I am just a bit hot about it still. And $3000 poorer by the time I get it all back to where I was....
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1423882
04/23/13 03:37 AM
04/23/13 03:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
My questions for most of the guys here are
1)How do you know you have the best possible converter in your car? Who's judgement are you using to make this conclusion. just trusting the converter guy are keeping records and maximizing each piece?
2) How many of you are willing to spend the money and take the time to make sure you have the EXACT right converter for your car?
IMO they ONLY way to know this is to experiment and be willing to spend money and take the time to try out different pieces. ANYTHING else is simple an educated guess. I have been around enough race cars and seen this WAY to many times. Guys THINK they have the perfect piece only to find out they are leaving ET and MPH on the table.
I can tell you from my experience with my last 4 BB Mopar engines that they ALL worked better with an 8" than with a 9" converter. This is not just the case in my car, it has been the case with customers cars as well. FWIW the last piece that was right in my hoopty was an 8" ATI that only stalled 6600 and had 3% slip. Oh yeah went to 8 S/ST finals with it so I guess it worked ok...
Converter companies do not always get it right the first time but most companies can get it right the second time. There is an old standard that says use the biggest core you can that will achieve the desired stall speed. There are a ton a variables that can affect which size core will work best. Every company seems to have their "magic" combination, or their go to stuff for certain engine combos. Finding someone who is willing to make sure you get the right piece is what you need to be after here. Don't get disappointed if it is not perfect the first time. Remember this is all theory until you put it in the car and go down the track.
Oh yeah. Be careful who you allow to cut your stuff open for inspection when there is a problem. I learned that very expensive lesson just recently. I had two converters cut open for inspection after a trans failure. Now in my opinion BOTH are junk for my combination. They both came back tighter than they were before. One 500-600 the other 1400!!! I will make do with one of them the rest of the year but will be starting over after that in search of the elusive "magic" combination. Sure hope it don't take nearly as many $$$ as last time.
One last topic for discussion. What do you all feel is the best/most consistent type of converter to have, loose or tight?
Well, I am one of the guys that Al is talking about. I've tried several converters. All 9" though. So far the best 9" tested, (and that would be 5) was a Hughes GM95..
So Al let me try his 8" ATI in my car. (An ATI converter speced for his car) Left the t-stop in the same place as the last run with my 9" Hughes.
Results were 8" ATI + 1.5 mph and a tenth quicker.. DA was almost identical.. Actually slightly worse with the 8".
Then we played with jetting and picked up another 1.5 mph. (that has nothing to do with the converter, just showing that Al is clueless).
So, my new converter will be an 8" ATI or A1.. Not sure yet on the maker.. 
And I know which type of converter is most consistent.. 
Chris..
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: gregsdart]
#1423884
04/23/13 03:51 AM
04/23/13 03:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And I know which type of converter is most consistent..
Chris..
OK, spill the beans!
Hughes GM93 BS9D..  So.. Very loose..
Chris.. 
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#1423886
04/23/13 04:14 AM
04/23/13 04:14 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 740
WA
JD Dart
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 740
WA
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I sure like the 8" A1 did when it comes off the stop it starts moving. Even they had the first one setup too loose not there fault motor is making more power since last time. I agree with Al you need to spend the extra time and $$ to get it right. I will try the 9" from TS after Boise I bet I'll be back to the 8" How many times have you hurd a car go down the track leaves real soft rpm just hangs for 2-3 seconds then starts moving ask him hey how do you like that convertor they say Or the other way rpm at 7000 and stays there all the way down the track ask him and another and the car runs 11.38 at 112
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: goldmember]
#1423888
04/23/13 07:36 AM
04/23/13 07:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,888
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,888
MI, usa
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Mine is a 9" from ultimate.We decided to start around 5600 and adjust from there. Tach says 5600 flash on the recall. 3320lbs,572, -1, N/SS manifold and eddys, similar cam spec, 4.10 gear, 10.5x31. So far only 1.37 60. I believe the car will run mid 1.20 when converter,shocks, chassis,carbs are all sorted out.
Doug
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: dvw]
#1423889
04/23/13 10:02 AM
04/23/13 10:02 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,527
PA
moparacer
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,527
PA
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For 900-1000 hp at that weight I would say 9 inch.
I run a glide at 3100 and I have the tightest 8 inch ATI can make in mine and it still flashes 6000+ rpm.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: moparacer]
#1423890
04/23/13 11:49 AM
04/23/13 11:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
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No consideration for Continental Converters? I have one of there 8+ converters. They asked all the right questions, cam card, compression, ect... Every car (6 total) that we have put a Continental in has worked very well. When I was down at the March Meet I asked each guy I talked to what converter he was running and most of them were Continental. Al is right! Without going out spending alot of money, changing brands and running different converters you will never find the "magic bullet"! 
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: moparacer]
#1423891
04/23/13 11:55 AM
04/23/13 11:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266
Renton Washington
Triple Threat
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266
Renton Washington
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It obviously depends on many factors, all of you are smart enough to know this. Don's motor has more stroke than Al's Chris' or Jess'. So even though they are all B1 motors making in excess of 900HP, 1 converter isn't going to be the best for all 3 of them. Al's motor needs a bunch of RPM to work well and be efficient, Don's motor is 50 cubes bigger, and the heads probably dont flow as well, which will bring his powerband down.
With the 3 speed, I think he's going to have a battle on his hands getting it to hook, the 9" might calm the hit down enough to make it work.
FWIW, My new converter is an Ultimate. Based on my combo Lenny gave me the option of an 8" or a 9" said he would build either as my combo was borderline in his opinion. I chose the 8", I felt it was more conventional, and would would be a better converter in the future if I ever change the combo.
All you can do is go with your gut Don, and hope its "the best". There's always going to be something better, someone faster...
-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Whompin_Wedge]
#1423893
04/23/13 12:57 PM
04/23/13 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,388
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,388
Las Vegas
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I think some folks get it. 900hp I'm officially but hurt now FWIW when we ran the 572" Hemi in the car the best working converter was....wait for it....an 8" ATI. Even after their insistence, and me buying and trying one of thier 9" units. As I say I am not using my hoopty as my only point of reference. As for the TF deal as Bill Creech what happened with his experience. He ended up with an 8" ATI and that car ran pretty well at 9.30's at 3100lb with a 511" stock block deal. Guess my point is THEY DONT ALWAYS GET IT RIGHT no matter who it is.... Casey glad to hear your results and that you picked up. Now question is are you willing to try another converter or lossening that one up to see what happens?? FWIW I would recommend ATI if anyone who asked me for a recommendation for a bracket converter. IMO they are willing to get it right. Wonder what you guys will say about my three 7" converters or the 8" we have that goes to 7800 
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1423895
04/23/13 01:15 PM
04/23/13 01:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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My opwn opinion - it depends on who you decide to work with because as they all hav said - you will be pulling it a couple times at least for tweaking. So that makes the company you deal with critical and yes I agree with Al that a simple cut and inspect can ruin the setup. I've see that personally but at a much lower performance level. My history isn't anywhere near the ETs you guys are reaching for - however my first call would be to Lenny @ Ultimate. I have multi-make friends that are very happy with his stuff, and I like the few conversations we have had. Consistent results are what you need to expect and I feel Lenny could do it best.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Triple Threat]
#1423898
04/23/13 02:35 PM
04/23/13 02:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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I wanted an 8" ati for my car. When I told them I use my car on the street they said forget it, we won't build you a converter. I asked why and they said it will build to much heat and then you will bad mouth us on the internet.
I gave them credit for turning me down instead of just building something I wanted and taking my money.
Lenny insisted on a 9 for street driving duties
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Jeepmon]
#1423899
04/23/13 04:42 PM
04/23/13 04:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,023
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Jeep, after you get the car to the track a few times and see how the whole deal performs, then you can decide just how much you want to spend chasing the ultimate setup. There is no end to it, only when your wallet (or body) gets sore from enough testing. My opionion is that if you think the first converter setup is very close, don't mess with it. Buy another (or two)to test with.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Biginchmopar]
#1423900
04/23/13 08:04 PM
04/23/13 08:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
No consideration for Continental Converters? I have one of there 8+ converters. They asked all the right questions, cam card, compression, ect...
Every car (6 total) that we have put a Continental in has worked very well.
When I was down at the March Meet I asked each guy I talked to what converter he was running and most of them were Continental.
Al is right! Without going out spending alot of money, changing brands and running different converters you will never find the "magic bullet"!
Continental..
I used them when I lived back in So. Cal when I was a youngster.. They worked fairly well.
Then I graduated to Munsinger, who is Top Notch.. But who wants to wait 4-6 months for a converter??
On another note, most of the internals for these converters are manufactured by The Converter Shop in Havasu.. Rusty..
That is one impressive shop there.
Chris..
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1423902
04/24/13 02:39 AM
04/24/13 02:39 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,202
aZLiViN
J_BODY
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Been preaching this for years..........finally gave up since he`s not really a "big name company" in most peoples minds. My 5000+ 8" Continental has worked flawlessly for 10+ years BUT, I don`t make as much power as most of you guys............. 
...and I would think a little higher stall 9" converter would be interesting in your car. Especially with your "street" driving. I only had one converter in the Mirada. It was a 9" from Lenny back in his TCT era. The car worked well and was consistant so we never messed with it. The Duster on the other hand has three converters as we seemed to change combo's on that car a little too often. Two were spec'ed for our W5, and one for the iron head 360. I'll be starting with the 8" when the W8 project gets done.
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1423903
04/24/13 03:18 AM
04/24/13 03:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,094
Sunnyvale, CA
Jeepmon
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,094
Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Been preaching this for years..........finally gave up since he`s not really a "big name company" in most peoples minds. My 5000+ 8" Continental has worked flawlessly for 10+ years BUT, I don`t make as much power as most of you guys.............
Believe it or not, I called Continetal first, but Peter (I think that's his name) was too busy to come to the phone and didnt return the call until this morning, which was after I placed the order with ATI
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Re: Torque Converter tech tips..
[Re: gregsdart]
#1423908
04/24/13 12:33 PM
04/24/13 12:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,094
Sunnyvale, CA
Jeepmon
OP
master
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OP
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Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
I Am looking forward to your results! Our combos are somewhat similar. What size core did they go with for you? Does ATI use a diode?
The sales rep I spoke with said an 8" might be too loose for the 4.50 stroke... and that we'll have more adjustability with the 9"... So I agreed to the 9" Fuel and Blown converter..
Also, I was told that the phone guys takes the orders and collects the specs, then some TC guru reviews it at ATI to make sure its correct..
As Dustin said above.. we're bracket racers and our goal is to turn on the win light.. more than ET chasing.. So if I can repeat the numbers each run, I'll be happy
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Sorry they didn`t get back w/ya and I deal w/Chris the owner only but if you`d like I can call him tomorrow for ya. 
