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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: OLD318]
#1381449
02/04/13 08:17 PM
02/04/13 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
...
I think before anyone gets into the mopar restoration hobby,
should take several body work classes at a local community college.
So they can get a feel for what they are getting into....
Bodywork and professional complete restoration are sorta two different things.
Other than body and paint to the body shell, the rest of the restoration only uses light body and paint "type" skills.
Many problems occurs when a "bodyshop" does a restoration.
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: vette1986]
#1381450
02/04/13 08:47 PM
02/04/13 08:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
I realize the labor hours billed out on the job. But sometimes I think you have to take a step back and look at the overall cost.
What is this guy charging per hour? If it's $50/hr, then 900 hour equals $45,000 just in labor. I'd imagine parts are like $10-15K??
Was the motor or trans rebuilt as part of this shop's resto?
If this total bill gets up near $60-$70K plus I just don't see that quality and throughness of restoration work done. The pics look very nice and appropiate for what you seem to be looking for. Just not $70K plus type of work.
Hello,
the shop is $43 an hour, the engine and trans I had those rebuilt at a reputable shop so that was not in the body shop's hours. The parts were not that bad on this one as most all the items were useable and present just needed to be freshened up. But I just look at the body pics and keep saying where did 900 hours go? I know it is a larger B body car but really the whole body process should have been an easy 300-350 hours with paint included as there was zero sheetmetal repair just blasting, sanding and spraying.
So right now you are in it for $38,700 labor dollars. Any idea what the parts and materials are so far?
They are doing more than just painting the body.
-They are disassembling the rear end, detailing, and reassembing?
-Are they doing the same to the front chassis parts?
-Did they totally take apart the dash and redo gauges or just paint the metal frame?
-It seems they just painted the steering column, but no full disassembly/rebuild/reassembly?
-How much of the interior was replaced?
Is the rear end, front end, and dash completed and ready to be put back in car currently?
Last edited by autoxcuda; 02/04/13 09:28 PM.
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: loren kraker]
#1381452
02/04/13 11:52 PM
02/04/13 11:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
Paul Jacobs
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
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I'll give you my humble opinion based on 25 years of restoring over 50 Mopars. I have done every kind of resto from basic, to resto mod, to OE Gold winners. 900 hours is getting into pro-territory, so I would expect some top shelf work with those hours. One of the big problems I see is many shops just DO NOT know the ins & outs of Mopars, and it's a big learning curve for them. Our shop can do things that would take other shops twice as long just because of our experience. At this point you need to decide if you want to ride it out or box it all and move on to a Mopar only shop. At this point in the game, they should be able to give you an idea the time needed to finish the job-but I bet they wont or can't because their lack of experience. Resto work is a lot of work and very unforgiving-I'm glad I retired from it this year! Good luck with you car! 
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: Rhinodart]
#1381454
02/05/13 01:59 AM
02/05/13 01:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
My 69 GTS cost $25K for the body and paint. Both quarters replaced, one front frame rail, all inner front unibody parts replaced with NOS parts, used NOS fenders and hood, and the drivers door needed lots of work. That was in 2001 and by 2012 I had $65K in and it still needed about 100 hours of work. Unfortunately I have to start over from scratch again after my garage fire. 
Is that $25K for body and paint counting the NOS and other replacement body panels?
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1381455
02/05/13 03:05 AM
02/05/13 03:05 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 21
Oklahoma City, OK. USA
Dr. Red
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 21
Oklahoma City, OK. USA
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For us a average paint job, strip, repair, filler work, prime, blocking, paint, color sand & buff is about 500 hours. This includes putting the car on a rotto and blasting and undercoating the bottom & wheel wells. Some of our customers want the underside painted this takes longer about 40-50 hours. If something has to be replaced like 1/4's or rockers that adds time. AND what kind of paint did you go with? I see in the pics that the jambs and body of the car are painted at the same time so I assume that this is a single stage enamel paint meaning no clear coat. A single stage paint job is a little less time consuming than a base coat clear coat paint. Because you have to assemble the car prime and block, take the car apart jamb it then put it back together to paint the rest of it. Now this is just the paint job!, when you start installing and assembly, that can hit 3-400 hours easily. shoot on these old Mopars you can get 60 hours in the wiring harness! So to see the pics of where the car is at with 900 hours, I can understand why it might be so. But did they do the car as I would do it? that is the question. do they give you a rundown of what they spent time on or do they just give you a bill to pay? I would be interested to see how long they spent on each aspect of the job. Someone said that a body shop is not a restoration shop this is very true, I have had guys that had awesome reference from a production body shop that could not handle the restoration business. Here is the 70 RT/SE we is building: 
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: Dr. Red]
#1381456
02/05/13 04:23 AM
02/05/13 04:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
For us a average paint job, strip, repair, filler work, prime, blocking, paint, color sand & buff is about 500 hours. This includes putting the car on a rotto and blasting and undercoating the bottom & wheel wells. Some of our customers want the underside painted this takes longer about 40-50 hours. If something has to be replaced like 1/4's or rockers that adds time. AND what kind of paint did you go with? I see in the pics that the jambs and body of the car are painted at the same time so I assume that this is a single stage enamel paint meaning no clear coat. A single stage paint job is a little less time consuming than a base coat clear coat paint. Because you have to assemble the car prime and block, take the car apart jamb it then put it back together to paint the rest of it. Now this is just the paint job!, when you start installing and assembly, that can hit 3-400 hours easily. shoot on these old Mopars you can get 60 hours in the wiring harness! So to see the pics of where the car is at with 900 hours, I can understand why it might be so. But did they do the car as I would do it? that is the question. do they give you a rundown of what they spent time on or do they just give you a bill to pay? I would be interested to see how long they spent on each aspect of the job. Someone said that a body shop is not a restoration shop this is very true, I have had guys that had awesome reference from a production body shop that could not handle the restoration business.
Here is the 70 RT/SE we is building:
What is your labor rate?
At 500 hours with a $40/hr rate you are saying a full resto paint job like on that challenger with no metal replacement is $20,000.
Does that 500 hours include disassembly of trim/moldings etc?
How many hours would it be for a car that was delivered as a shell for only the parts that needed paint. With a shell like this there are no parts to store around the body shop to get fithy, broken, or lost. Nor take up valuable body shop square footage.
Like this:
Last edited by autoxcuda; 02/05/13 04:37 AM.
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: a12superbee]
#1381458
02/05/13 06:20 AM
02/05/13 06:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
Man you guys talk some scary numbers. 
I think some of the body/paint quotes include removal and reinstalling of pieces that a halfway mechanically inclined owner should be doing before/after hand.
Crazy thing is, people have shopped around here and got top quality work done here in So Cal for less to same price. And So Cal is suppose to be the worst place for this kind of business with all the paint regulations, business fee, taxes, high cost of living, high cost of housing, high cost of rent...
How can a place in the middle of the boondocks with low gov. regs, property values by the acre, and cheap cost of living charge more?
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1381460
02/05/13 10:32 AM
02/05/13 10:32 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,450
It's a dry heat
gtx6970
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,450
It's a dry heat
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The 1970 Cuda last year I did took just over 400 hours - start to finish.
When I get the car is was a painted but stripped shell. Nothing bolt on other than sheet metal was on it.
I did the dash,steering column , dynomat the interior, ( that alone took nearly 2 full days btw) And ALL the assy work as well as all the custom fab work to install a full aftermkt A/C system, Custom made ft sway bar brackets because the ones supplied with the aftermkt ft bar didn't fit the K frame . Custom made brackets to to mount the park brake system due to the frame connectors in the way , etc etc etc
Every single wire harness in it is brand new (even that created an issue to diag a wiper motor issue turned out to be 2 wires crossed in the main dash harness, like that can be planned for )
Engine was done, trans was done, rear axle was done.
etc etc etc .
Anyone who looks at a car and says they can give you an accurate estimate restoring old cars is feeding you a bunch of bs to get the job.
Ok, I'm done. gotta repair a firewall on a 1968 Charger today. And it has to look like it was never done
before
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: gtx6970]
#1381463
02/05/13 11:23 AM
02/05/13 11:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060
Western New York
sixpackbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060
Western New York
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On a car that solid and just a driver type job I would put the hours at between 300-400 for where they are at right now. Sort of hard to put a real precise figure on it as I have not seen the car in person but judging from the pictures metal work looked minimum which is where the cars I end up doing suck up a lot of hours. Just an educated opinion.
1959 Bugeye Sprite
1967 Charger Black L code
1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner
1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM
1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96
1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car
1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85
1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96
1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13
1971 MG Midget
1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57
1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: Paul Jacobs]
#1381464
02/05/13 11:32 AM
02/05/13 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
Aero426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
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Quote:
I'll give you my humble opinion based on 25 years of restoring over 50 Mopars. I have done every kind of resto from basic, to resto mod, to OE Gold winners. 900 hours is getting into pro-territory, so I would expect some top shelf work with those hours.
One of the big problems I see is many shops just DO NOT know the ins & outs of Mopars, and it's a big learning curve for them. Our shop can do things that would take other shops twice as long just because of our experience.
At this point you need to decide if you want to ride it out or box it all and move on to a Mopar only shop. At this point in the game, they should be able to give you an idea the time needed to finish the job-but I bet they wont or can't because their lack of experience.
Agree with everything Paul says here. You should expect some productivity gains from a restoration shop that knows what they are doing. Doesn't seem like you are getting that benefit.
You have to decide whether you are going to pull the plug and take the car elsewhere. Given that you are getting uncomfortable, the project is far enough along that they should be able to give you a good faith estimate on finishing. If they can't, I'd begin to think about other options.
At 900 hours, that is the same as one guy working almost half a year only on that car. That seems like a lot of hours for where you are now. My gut tells me they are stringing you along as a cash cow.
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: gtx6970]
#1381465
02/05/13 11:33 AM
02/05/13 11:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,585
SE Pa.
LimeliteAero
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,585
SE Pa.
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Im in the middle of a full monty on a low mileage super minimal rust 6BBL superbird. I delivered the car to the shop as a rolling shell but needed to redo some items that I did prior to deciding on a rotisserrie restoration. Im in pretty deep and wont have color until the next few weeks. the shop will then reinstall the vinyl top and reassemble the doors including glass installation minus the windshield. By the time I get the car theyll be around 800 hours???? I wont tally my reciepts until Im finished because I dont wanna  until its finished. EDIT: I just took a quick look at the invoices for labor and I'll be in under my first estimate by a couple hundred hours. I was including materials and some other items that shouldnt be included in the labor.  
Last edited by LimeliteAero; 02/05/13 11:49 AM.
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Re: Hour timeframe on a rotisserie restoration
[Re: vette1986]
#1381467
02/05/13 01:49 PM
02/05/13 01:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Obviously by your post, you've never "fully" restored a vehicle, sure no metal replacement in your definition, but they had to strip the car down to a shell, blast/strip/dip the major components of sheetmetal, prime, paint, along with any hammer or filler work, nevermind the finial stages of blocking coat after coat of primer to prepare for paint, nevermind the interior prep/assembly, driveline, exterior decals/trim, etc, etc, electrical, fuel/emission lines, brake lines, exhaust, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... the minutia of preparing, detailing all the componets for a full restoration are staggering, to the uninformed, it looks like a cake walk on a "clean" car, it isn't...trust me, 1000 hrs is the norm for a "good" restoration,....I can spend upwards of 500 hrs just priming, blocking, painting, color sanding, and buffing a paint job, nevermind the rest of the vehicles needs,....And by putting the "gun" to the builders/shop's head to finish the car based on your estimation of completion, it's guaranteed they will start cutting corners, then you'll get what you "payed for"... 
And them holding my car in pieces and not telling me how many hours they think it will take to finish it is right? That is more in the unethical side than me telling them they have X amount of hours to complete it. I just told them as many hours as I have paid for this car should have been done and I am not paying to have someone "learn" how to restore a car and he needs to start taking accountability for his workers and get the job done without milking more hours out of me.
Have you ever ACTUALLY restored a car?
I looked at your pictures and I don't see any of the body in bare metal , or with the paint removed showing any filler, I see people and you saying it's a solid car , all I see is PAINT , my x-ray vision doesn't seem to work as well as others here do ????
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. Too bad they didn't name them in the article.
