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Small block cooling for Drag racing tricks?
#1355466
12/19/12 11:47 AM
12/19/12 11:47 AM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Quick question. I was talking to Myron yesterday and asked if he had any special cooling tricks on his stock eliminator Drag car car he wanted to share. He said he really didn't so....  As most of you know the front block (deck) passage in the head gasket on a small block Mopar is closed...which forces the pump discharge water from the front of the block exclusively to the block first...the back HG deck hole is designed to be open which means water circulates mainly through the big rear hole and also through the passages between the cylinders up to the head. Water follows the path of least resistence so it's not suprising that most of the water that flows to the head travels past (and absorbs heat from) all the cylinders from front to rear first. I suppose The logic from an OEM standpoint was perhaps to get quicker warm-up by getting more heat to the heads on cold mornings, otherwise why does the block even have the hole (to block off by the gasket) in the front anyway? On a drag car you primariry want to keep the oil/block adequately warm and (after a full throttle run) the heads cool, I'm wondering does anyone open up the front passages in the gasket? I know that in the famous thread on another Mopar site, Stanton (A man who I admire greatly and respect tremendously) advises to also block both the rear Deck holes and therefore force all the block water up through the deck via the (enlarged) bottom passages (to maximize exhaust valve cooling for heat and feature races). I 110% agree with the logic of this appraoch for a circle track motor and possibly even on the street...but on a drag motor it's sometimes difficult to keep enough heat in the motor to keep the oil up to temp and warm the bottom end to optimal temps, and after a run EVERYTHING is hot and circulating water past the bores and then to the heads (most of the water to the heads passes through the rear deck holes as it's the largest orifice) For max power you want to typically want to keep the cylinder heads and intake manifold as cool as possible between rounds, especially if you are surviving eliminations and the time between rounds compresses as the day goes on. By opening those front holes (open them up to about 7/16" only) you should theoretically be diverting more of the cooled (directly from the radiator through the pump at the highest discharge pressure) water to the heads and also (if you think about it) giving the heads a bit more equalized and lower pressure (since there's one more hole for water to pass) coolant flow. I'm not suggesting everybody go out and do this but this was a "secret" shown to me many years ago by a guy that had a very consistent bracket Small block. The advantage of slightly cooler water getting directly to the heads can help wick away a little extra heat. And with aluminum heads (if you happen the run them) it could be even more advantageous. BTW...I'm not endorsing this... it seems to work and from my limited experience trying it (very early on and I raced mostly big blocks throug the years) it's more for a pro and con discussion and again this applies mainly to Bracket cars more so than street cars. BTW..Stanton also brings up the very good point of tapping return lines in the back of the manifold to prevent air pockets in the heads. With some manifolds (like the pass side of the Vic) this is not easily accomplished without a lot of aluminum removal though. I'd like to see a thermal study of how water actually flows in a running small block, I suspect you would see far from equalized flow and surface temperatures as the block is more like a bathtub (hot tub) that the bores sit it, stanton very correctly points out that the oem style pump loses a lot of efficiency as the crank speed passes 6000 rpm, slower ratio pullies (smaller crank pulley) not only save power at high RPM, but they also can reduce or prevent cavitation in the traps...pump efficiency drops and the 'bathtub' temp rises. I learned about this indirectly (didn't fully understand the cause and effect at the time) 30+ years ago bracket racing my old W2 340. Put a small diameter moroso pulley on it and the problem went away. please discuss.... 
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/19/12 05:52 PM.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355467
12/19/12 12:46 PM
12/19/12 12:46 PM
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I did this;  I noticed very little difference. The best cooling was obtained when I put a good 2500cfm fan on with a shroud. The restrictor plate is next to the manifold in the housing in order to avert pressure equalization between manifold water and bypass line water.
Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355468
12/19/12 01:21 PM
12/19/12 01:21 PM
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Az
Crizila
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Agree that coolant flow in a sm blk was designed to get heat up to the heads / manifold ASAP for many reasons ( not the least being emissions ). And yes, in a drag car you really want the oppisite. When I was running a NA motor w/ stock cooling system I had boarder line cooling issues if the ambient temp was over 90 and I only had 1/2 hr to 45 minutes between rounds. I had to run an 8 blade pump, big rad, no stat, and a big 19" flex fan w/full shroud to deal with it. I was only measuring the coolant temp right near the stat housing in the intake manifold. I am running the same motor (in a blower configuration) with the only cooling system change being that the block is about 3/4 filled. The coolant temp is measured in the same place as the NA motor, but I am also measuring oil temp ( at the drain plug in the pan). From a coolant standpoint, the motor runs at least 25 degrees cooler. Don't have a comparison on oil temp as I was not running an oil temp gauge on my NA motor, but I do believe the oil is running hotter ( 200 to 220 range ) after a pass - but never seen the gauge over 220. Per my oil Mfg, right were they want it. Over all, running a filled block seems to be a good thing - at least in my case and for a drag application.  As far as pump cavitation at higher rpm's, not sure that's a bad thing. Could free up some HP and it's for such a short duration in drag applications that I doudt there is much of a temp spike attached to it. I have tried using an infared thermometer to get a handle on temps at different spots in the block/manifold/headers/ etc. Confuses the crap out of me!! I think part of my problem is trying to differentiate between fuel distribution issues and coolant flow issues. With out a doubt, the middle holes on both sides of the block run hotter than the outer holes. My opinion is that coolant temps have a broad range and on top of that, aren't consistant in any one particular area ( change with RPM). 
Fastest 300
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355472
12/20/12 04:06 AM
12/20/12 04:06 AM
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Quote:
Passage cover = Front deck water passage?
if so...I would think the block would warm up sooner since you're splitting the cool water flow by diverting directly to the heads?
the larger ones at each end of the block that go up into the head casting and then on to the intake manifold passage in the front and usually covered over in the rear by the manifold, thats where you drill/tap for the transfer tubes/hoses that go back to the thermo housing, so I drill a 1/2 hole in the head gasket to allow water to pass thru the normally covered passage, don't ask me how but it works real well,,,also the block is half filled if that matters. 
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355474
12/20/12 11:39 AM
12/20/12 11:39 AM
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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You make valid points on the bleeders, I have threatened to put those in after having some issues getting all the air out,, as far as the passages, this is somthing that looked like would be a cooling improvement,,does it work? well it dont run hot,never had the temp guage go over 180* at any time during a pass or sitting idleing in the pit's could it work better? possibly, if I had plenty of time and money then we could make an experiment out of this. 
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: dartman366]
#1355475
12/20/12 11:59 AM
12/20/12 11:59 AM
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Az
Crizila
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Quote:
You make valid points on the bleeders, I have threatened to put those in after having some issues getting all the air out,, as far as the passages, this is somthing that looked like would be a cooling improvement,,does it work? well it dont run hot,never had the temp guage go over 180* at any time during a pass or sitting idleing in the pit's could it work better? possibly, if I had plenty of time and money then we could make an experiment out of this.
IMO, just because you don't have an overheat problem ( at the point where you are measuring it ), doesn't mean you have done anything to improve the temp variation between cylinders, which is the more important issue - again IMO. Valve train layout ( EIIEEIIE ) makes it difficult.
Fastest 300
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Crizila]
#1355478
12/20/12 12:34 PM
12/20/12 12:34 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Crizilla, think about this a minute and tell me if it makes sense. If you seal an aluminum head with a copper head gasket you should have very good thermal transfer in both directions so where it's overly hot (like the bottom of head between those center EE exhausts) the heat should spread (dissipate) more effectively (compared to a composite gasket) between the thick deck surfaces of the block and head. So anything you can do to cool the heads more effectively should be beneficial to the entire system because (particularly and aluminum head) can act as a more efficient heat sink (when the motor is not under load). Something a lot of people don't seem to understand fully about cooling systems is you can achieve lower cylider head and engine surface temps AND register hotter coolant temperatures simultaneously; Surfactants (such as water wetter....and Woolite, btw  ) are designed to break down the surface tension of the wet metal and allow more efficient heat transfer FROM the metal TO the coolant system. The coolant temp rise can be a measure of it's effectiveness, however if it wicks more heat out of the motor than the radiatior can handle the coolant temp at the gauge can also rise. Watter wetter is IMO at least semi-misunderstood as to what it is really meant to do. you can see lower head and coolant temps...as long as the entire cooling system (fins, tube capacity, fans and of course the ambient air!!) is efficient enough to dissipate it. Radiator (heat exchanger) effectiveness alone can be checked by measuring the Differential temps at the inlet and outlet.
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/20/12 12:47 PM.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: 65 DODGE POST]
#1355480
12/20/12 01:02 PM
12/20/12 01:02 PM
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Streetwize
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Jim, What you said makes a lot of sense and I've always considered that... some of the pump discharge will recirc directly through the radiator again, particularly at high flow rates and that could result in a cooler radiator and a hotter motor. however, as Stanton correctly mentions that a presurrized fluid will take the path of least resistence so limiting the size to 1/2" diameter or less (i believe) seems to still force most of the water through the block. A 1" Diameter hole (at the pump discharge intot he block) is 4 times the area of a 1/2" diameter hole in the head gasket and the 'Bathtub' of the block water jacket itself is (likely, I'm assuming) still the least resistive path. That new holes path is also restricted at higher engine speed because 1/2 of the volume of total water returning to the radiator is passing though the head (the sum of all the other cooling paths on that side of the block)  from the other direction. another reason for adding rear return holes I suppose. Also there are several other parallel paths between the block and the head, by adding one additional orifice you are proportionally reducing the flow across the other holes (and I suppose a block filled with fluid has it's own backpressure 'resistences') as well as the one you've added (for a given pump discharge rate). there are also the 'cast in" flow restrictions in each parralel path that come into play as well. so at higher engine speeds I doubt that new hole will really do very much. I still contend that the logical reason the front is blocked was primarily to speed cold weather warm-up by forcing (bore heated) water through the block before reaching the heads. Like I said, it's all open for discussion, I've just seen some 'effect' benefits for keeping a motor cool between rounds
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/20/12 01:21 PM.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355481
12/20/12 01:19 PM
12/20/12 01:19 PM
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Cape Coral
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Quote:
Jim, What you said makes a lot of sense and I've always considered that... some of the pump discharge will recirc directly through the radiator again, particularly at high flow rates and that could result in a cooler radiator and a hotter motor. however, as Stanton correctly mentions that a presurrized fluid will take the path of least resistence so limiting the size to 1/2" diameter or less (i believe) seems to still force most of the water through the block. A 1" Diameter hole (at the pump discharge intot he block) is 4 times the area of a 1/2" diameter hole in the head gasket. Also there are several other parallel paths between the block and the head, by adding one additional orifice you are proportionally reducing the flow across the other holes (and I suppose a block filled with fluid has it's own backpressure 'resistences') as well as the one you've added (for a given pump discharge rate). there are also the 'cast in" flow restrictions in each parralel path that come into play as well.
Like I said, it's all open for discussion, I've just seen some 'effect' benefits for keeping a motor cool between rounds
I understand.....but when I was putting mine together.... I asked myself why would I even want to open a hole there? It would act like a tiny bypass of cooled water to come in and go directly out....The only thing it would do is slow down the flow to the other passages...I guess if you are pushing water through the motor to fast this would help...( I actually drilled my cometics and thought they were wrong)Sure you would still get flow through all of the other passages but it would slow it down...
I wanted to make sure my heads were cooled because I have heard of these old W2's cracking.. So after rethinking everything I blocked the front and reduced the top hole in the rear...
Most of the water in a stock system goes straight towards that rear top hole and pushes water through the top of the head out the front....Now I believe my heads are getting cooled more equally.. Forcing the water from the bottom of the head up and out...
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: 65 DODGE POST]
#1355482
12/20/12 01:26 PM
12/20/12 01:26 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Jim, Don't know if you saw my added 'edit'...I also added the point that flow through that "new" front hole will also see a lot more resistence at speed since it has to contend with the sum of the other 'return' hot water pathways to the radiator being forced through the path between the head and the intake manifold. It's like shooting a higher pressure stream of water at a right angle into a lower pressure but much larger stream flowing past it...in a pipe. Some will get through but by no means will ALL of it get through. As I said, it's just a (not so simple after all, huh) question to stimulate some tech conversation and maybe help all of us (especially me, lol) understand the cooling circuit a little better.
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/20/12 04:07 PM.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355483
12/20/12 03:09 PM
12/20/12 03:09 PM
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Stanton also makes a great point that (as I interpret it anyway) that much of the cooling issues have to do with how the water circulates in the engine, there are inherent "hot and Cool" spots by the nature of how the water flows....or doesn't. I suppose there's so many pressure drops along the circuit that it's like adding cold water into your hot bathtub and trying to equalize it by stiring it around. The mod where he taps into the sides of the 1" discharge tubes in the w/p housing and routes them to the middle of the block casting is pretty telling of the lengths racers will go to to try to achieve better balance. It's also telling that I can think of no race engines developed on a clean sheet of paper inthe past 20 or so years have anything that resembles the traditional 'siamese' valve arrangement.
He also makes a very interesting point that by the fluid system being pressurized it lends rigidity and helps to stabilize the bores...and I suppose also dampen vibration and noise as well.
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/20/12 03:17 PM.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355484
12/20/12 03:17 PM
12/20/12 03:17 PM
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Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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I've done an aweful lot of testing over the years to come up with what i feel works the best. Keeping in mind that flow and pressure combined is what transfers the engine heat to the coolant most effectively. Often times it's the simplest method that brings the best results. For me, running a single -4 crossover at the back of the manifold with a tee in the center, then a single -4 off the tee back to the thermostat housing. i use .060 restrictors at each side of the manifold before the tee and a single .060 after the tee and before the thermostat housing. That method allows any trapped air to escape the heads, it keep the system properly pressurized and flows way more coolant than on might think. It's simple and effective. You can get more elaborate by plumbing lines between cylinders 3 & 5 and 4 & 7 but i highly recommend restricting those lines as well. I did a lot of the testing with clear hose to see just exactly what was going on and you'd be amazed at how much coolant flows through a .060 orifice. Anyway, that method always resulted in more even temps between cylinders and with a proper cooling system (radiator/ fan) always resulted in lower overall temps when hot lapping. I'm not a believer in opening up the front holes and circulating that coolant back to the radiator. That always seemed pointless to me and further testing proved i was right. Carry on. 
Last edited by Performance Only; 12/20/12 03:18 PM.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Streetwize]
#1355485
12/20/12 04:49 PM
12/20/12 04:49 PM
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Crizila
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Quote:
Crizilla,
think about this a minute and tell me if it makes sense.
If you seal an aluminum head with a copper head gasket you should have very good thermal transfer in both directions so where it's overly hot (like the bottom of head between those center EE exhausts) the heat should spread (dissipate) more effectively (compared to a composite gasket) between the thick deck surfaces of the block and head. So anything you can do to cool the heads more effectively should be beneficial to the entire system because (particularly and aluminum head) can act as a more efficient heat sink (when the motor is not under load).
Something a lot of people don't seem to understand fully about cooling systems is you can achieve lower cylider head and engine surface temps AND register hotter coolant temperatures simultaneously; Surfactants (such as water wetter....and Woolite, btw ) are designed to break down the surface tension of the wet metal and allow more efficient heat transfer FROM the metal TO the coolant system. The coolant temp rise can be a measure of it's effectiveness, however if it wicks more heat out of the motor than the radiatior can handle the coolant temp at the gauge can also rise. Watter wetter is IMO at least semi-misunderstood as to what it is really meant to do. you can see lower head and coolant temps...as long as the entire cooling system (fins, tube capacity, fans and of course the ambient air!!) is efficient enough to dissipate it.
Radiator (heat exchanger) effectiveness alone can be checked by measuring the Differential temps at the inlet and outlet.
Agree on the first part - gaskets, and if you don't / can't run copper, MLS is the next best thing for heat transfer. Don't necessarily agree on the second part. It all depends on where you are taking the temp readings. If you are reading near the thermostat housing where most the coolant is converging before exiting to the rad, when that temp goes up, something ( and most likely everything ) in the motor is running hotter. It's why the factory puts it there. It is an "average" reading. The hottest spots in the engine will always be near the exhaust valves and the "twins" will be the worst. Obvious issues that many on this thread already know and are addressing. Some good reading on this (page 106) in the "How to build a big inch small block" mag by Jim Szilagyi. The chaptor seems to address the problem a little more directly by plumbing directly from the water pump to the center freeze plug in the block ( directly under 3-5 and 4-6 exhaust valves. The race water pump ( P4876548 )Is set up for this. Gotta use race cover #P4876632 with it.  BTW, don't agree on the theory that the coolant travels too fast to transfer heat - not the same as regulating flow go give more to the hot spots.
Last edited by Crizila; 12/20/12 04:55 PM.
Fastest 300
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: emarine01]
#1355489
12/20/12 07:31 PM
12/20/12 07:31 PM
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Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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I wonder when some of these cooling articles were written. Stanton runs on methonal. That makes a huge difference over engines running on gasoline.
Anyone who peered over in the engine bay when I ran nitrous on the W8 knows I have experimented with water flow. Either that or ran a bunch of hoses just to throw people off. Well, some of both. When you race against people who make out that they got it all figured out but continuously copy your ideas you have to do what you have to do.
If you are faced with extremen heat between 3&5 4&6 take the hint and try jetting and timing. I love to see the hoses off the rear of the heads. With a stock configuration head gasket those are just for exhausting the boiling bubbles out of the head so weter water can cool the head. Dram commented on restricting these, can't agree more. You need just enough to get the bubbling water out. You can also tap into the water jacket above the combustion chambers with a more ellaborate system. Lot of trouble but it works.
Before you go punching holes in a good head gasket get a set for the W7-9 heads and take a look. There is no rear hole at all. Instead there are holes under the exhaust port. Some gaskets actually the holes get larger going to the rear. You would be surprised how many times I have seen the gaskets on backwards. With these gaskets things work really well for NA engines. P
Put the majic button in the car or forced induction with and you will find small blocks will overheat again. Even if you never see the gauge read over 210. Pull the engine apart and smell all the burnt oil. You can run a hose from the timing cover to the center freeze plug. Very little to no difference. Run big hoses to the rear of the head and equal size at the front, will not keep the engine balanced front to back.
If you really want results block the front of the block up. Run water straight in to all six freeze plugs. The run #6-8 lines from both ends of the head to a water manifold and back to radiator. So heads from round track have center outlest. By all means use thes holes and restict the ends. This is better. But your coolest water is being warmed up by the block before going into the head. Why everyone beats around what the know they should do is beyond me. REVERSE COOL. This puts your best water in the heads first. Then the hot water goes into the block were you need a little heat.
This is just my 2 cents. Mechanical pumps have no business on high RPM race engines unless you have your pulleys ratiod to not cavitate the pump.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing
[Re: Leon441]
#1355490
12/21/12 01:29 PM
12/21/12 01:29 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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So the issue at the rear of the motor is simply aster of sir trapped in the headspace? So tapping to the T stay with either independent or a T line is not to aid flow by giving the hot water (pushed up through the block) a seperate path to the radiator? Dan's comments are insightful as always but I'm confused about the restrictors. High pressure will spray very far through even the smallest of orifices....but hardly at all if the pressure is equal ( or near equal) on both sides of the restricting orifice. The engine (block and heads) would be considered (in process engineering terms) as a pressurized unit. There will be variations in pressure due to different flow paths but nothing will be flowing from high pressure to anything near atmospheric....unless there was a leak. All I'm saying is that differential pressures and temperatures have a big effect on flow and flow rates. I find the varying holes in the race head gasket very interesting...factored for pressure drops as they get further from the pump discharge. Just like the piling circuit, there are both series and parallel flow paths and any change to one has an effect on the others.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing tricks?
[Re: Crizila]
#1355497
12/22/12 11:46 AM
12/22/12 11:46 AM
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Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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Dave Webber used to sell those bungs to go in freeze plug holes.
If you are plugging the water pump entry into the block.....Might as well run the water to the heads first and reverse cool. Would probably want to run the race head gasket set and plumb to both ends of the heads and middle if you have the port. You need to run a jumper from the pump to top of radiator or the pump will air lock and not work.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Small block cooling for Drag racing tricks?
[Re: bwhackd34]
#1355501
12/22/12 08:34 PM
12/22/12 08:34 PM
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Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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That is a neat approach.
Before I tall filled my R3 I was reverse cooling and using the press in fittings in the freeze plug holes. When the block was filled we lost the access to return water to the radiator.
REally liked the benefits of reverse cooling running nitrous. You method may have worked well for me. A remote pump would also work and just run the spacers behind a motor plate with no water pump passages.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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and if you really want to be confused, buy an infered gun and start taking readings in different areas on the block / heads while you run the eng rpm up and down, changing pump pressure. You will be second guessing a lot of your motifications. 
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