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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345832
12/04/12 02:40 PM
12/04/12 02:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,329
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JohnRR
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Quote:
My first guess is that the tranny, TKO-500, is sitting lower then a stock tranny to fit in the tunnel. I can jack the tranny up about 1/2" which really helps the shaker, but then it is hitting the floor hump.
ding ding ding .... WINNER , this is the problem with the TKO KIT.
Instead of mickey mousing it you should have trimmed and expanded whatever needs to be trimmed and/or expanded and set the engine at the proper angle.
Now you need to check your driveshaft and pinion angle and how is your fan in relation to the radiator ???
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: JohnRR]
#1345833
12/04/12 05:25 PM
12/04/12 05:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,167
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Quote:
Quote:
My first guess is that the tranny, TKO-500, is sitting lower then a stock tranny to fit in the tunnel. I can jack the tranny up about 1/2" which really helps the shaker, but then it is hitting the floor hump.
ding ding ding .... WINNER , this is the problem with the TKO KIT.
Instead of mickey mousing it you should have trimmed and expanded whatever needs to be trimmed and/or expanded and set the engine at the proper angle.
Now you need to check your driveshaft and pinion angle and how is your fan in relation to the radiator ???
I was just going to "parrot" this same comment  .....you need to establish the proper driveline angle, I don't care who's TKO 500/600 kit you have, as there are several vendors, the Shaker gap is the least of your worries right now, you can either clearance the floor, and/or trim any excess casting tabs/flanges not needed on the tranny that may be hitting the floor and preventing you from establishing the proper driveline angle, the proper angle is when your transmission/engine centerline is on the same parallel as your STOCK rear pinion angle, and your driveshaft exhibits a 1-2 degree deflection between these two components....buy an inclination meter/scale
mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: JohnRR]
#1345834
12/04/12 07:04 PM
12/04/12 07:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Quote:
Quote:
My first guess is that the tranny, TKO-500, is sitting lower then a stock tranny to fit in the tunnel. I can jack the tranny up about 1/2" which really helps the shaker, but then it is hitting the floor hump.
ding ding ding .... WINNER , this is the problem with the TKO KIT.
Instead of mickey mousing it you should have trimmed and expanded whatever needs to be trimmed and/or expanded and set the engine at the proper angle.
Now you need to check your driveshaft and pinion angle and how is your fan in relation to the radiator ???
Well I didn't mickey mouse it, I put in the tranny using the mount and cross member that came with it. That is easier said then done when you don't have a motor at the time of mock up to check it. The fan does clear, but it is close. I did redo the tunnel on the side to fit the tranny, but didn't do anything to the top to raise the tranny cause no one ever said it needed to. Would have been super easy to do when the car was all apart and the floor. Now it is all pained inside and out and I would rather not cut the floor apart again. The kit came with its own cross member so I thought it was suppose to be at the right hieght. Seems like no one can make anything right anymore.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345835
12/04/12 07:42 PM
12/04/12 07:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,105
Ont, Canada
moparo
super stock
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super stock
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Ont, Canada
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There should have been a drawing detailing the area on the floor which needs to be cut out.
Last edited by moparo; 12/04/12 07:45 PM.
performancecarrestorations.com
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: moparo]
#1345836
12/04/12 08:23 PM
12/04/12 08:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Quote:
There should have been a drawing detailing the area on the floor which needs to be cut out.
Yes their was. All it has to do with is cutting the side of the tunnel, nothing to raise the tranny. The tranny fits as it is suppose to with the supplied crossmemeber and mount. Guess the problem is that it is designed to drop the tranny lower then stock maybe to gain clearance. If that is the case I am in a real pickle 
I fit the tranny using the supplied crossmember long ago when the car was taken apart. Modifing the floor to clear the side of it.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Grizzly]
#1345838
12/05/12 10:37 AM
12/05/12 10:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Quote:
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Guess the problem is that it is designed to drop the tranny lower then stock maybe to gain clearance. If that is the case I am in a real pickle
Yes, I would really hate to be in your shoes right now.
Your photos certainly tell the story. Put the ball in their court: send them these pics and see if they will do something about it.
Yea right. It fits, it just isn't right.....
If someone could give me a measurement of a stock tail shaft to the floor or from a straigth line across the bottom of the rockers or something would really be great. Shouldn't matter if it is auto or 4 speed. Would just like to get something to compare to what I have to see how far it is really off. Then I can contact them with some concrete evidence. If not for a shaker hood it wouldn't be too big of a deal and I would probably never have known.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345839
12/05/12 11:00 AM
12/05/12 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,329
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,329
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My first guess is that the tranny, TKO-500, is sitting lower then a stock tranny to fit in the tunnel. I can jack the tranny up about 1/2" which really helps the shaker, but then it is hitting the floor hump.
ding ding ding .... WINNER , this is the problem with the TKO KIT.
Instead of mickey mousing it you should have trimmed and expanded whatever needs to be trimmed and/or expanded and set the engine at the proper angle.
Now you need to check your driveshaft and pinion angle and how is your fan in relation to the radiator ???
Well I didn't mickey mouse it, I put in the tranny using the mount and cross member that came with it. That is easier said then done when you don't have a motor at the time of mock up to check it. The fan does clear, but it is close. I did redo the tunnel on the side to fit the tranny, but didn't do anything to the top to raise the tranny cause no one ever said it needed to. Would have been super easy to do when the car was all apart and the floor. Now it is all pained inside and out and I would rather not cut the floor apart again. The kit came with its own cross member so I thought it was suppose to be at the right hieght. Seems like no one can make anything right anymore.
I guess you never read anything on the internet , or this site , about that kit.
I never said your install was mickey mouse , I was saying not to mickey mouse the repair.
But I must be a physic because I just saw your thread looking for a ring to put on the carb air horn ...
A friend of mine did the same thing , and I TOLD him when he asked me before even painting the car to install the trans to an empty block and check the trans angle and modify the floor as necessary.
Months later I get a call with an issue just like you have ...
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Grizzly]
#1345840
12/05/12 11:05 AM
12/05/12 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,329
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Put the ball in their court: send them these pics and see if they will do something about it.
Seriously ??? 
Kiesler caters to the worst possible market , MOPAR OWNERS , even guys with 4 door, slant 6 darts do not want to make a cut on the floor ...
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345843
12/05/12 01:22 PM
12/05/12 01:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,167
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Quote:
Well I did read on the forums and knew that the floor had to be moded on the passenger side to make it fit correct. That was no issue I did it. I didn't see it mensioned anywhere that the mount that is supplied with the kit actually drops the the tail shaft of the tranny below stock height which tips the engine back. The only way I would have know is to fully assemble the car shaker and all. I did have the tranny mounted in the car when doing the floor work, but how was I to know that the crossmember supplied drops the tranny.
I am not trying to blame anyone, just thinking of solutions. My first choice it going to be to raise the tunnel, but I have to see if I can hide it under the consel or not. Just exploring options is all.
By the way it did not come from Keisler
If you had searched any of the Mopar Forums for TKO500/600 installs, I've clearly stated for perhaps the last 10 years on various sites that, that ANY TKO 500/600 install needs to have the drivelinr angle re-established, and a factory 4spd hump used, A,B,or E body....
I'll measure my 71 E body 4spd factory equipped car tonight for you to determine a "starting" point for you to re-establish a proper driveline angle,...bite the bullet and correct this issue now...
Allmost all of the kits offered on the market today are based on the initial Keisler design of over a decade ago, while Keisler has continiously improved their design over the years, others have not, only a select few have improved apon their initial offering
mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1345844
12/05/12 01:42 PM
12/05/12 01:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Quote:
Quote:
Well I did read on the forums and knew that the floor had to be moded on the passenger side to make it fit correct. That was no issue I did it. I didn't see it mensioned anywhere that the mount that is supplied with the kit actually drops the the tail shaft of the tranny below stock height which tips the engine back. The only way I would have know is to fully assemble the car shaker and all. I did have the tranny mounted in the car when doing the floor work, but how was I to know that the crossmember supplied drops the tranny.
I am not trying to blame anyone, just thinking of solutions. My first choice it going to be to raise the tunnel, but I have to see if I can hide it under the consel or not. Just exploring options is all.
By the way it did not come from Keisler
If you had searched any of the Mopar Forums for TKO500/600 installs, I've clearly stated for perhaps the last 10 years on various sites that, that ANY TKO 500/600 install needs to have the drivelinr angle re-established, and a factory 4spd hump used, A,B,or E body....
I'll measure my 71 E body 4spd factory equipped car tonight for you to determine a "starting" point for you to re-establish a proper driveline angle,...bite the bullet and correct this issue now...
Allmost all of the kits offered on the market today are based on the initial Keisler design of over a decade ago, while Keisler has continiously improved their design over the years, others have not, only a select few have improved apon their initial offering
mike
I have read the post and know about the drive line angle issues. I guess never thought about or heard it mensioned how much it droped the tail shaft and tipped the motor back which messes with the shaker.
I do have a 4 speed hump and did modify the passenger side of it to fit the tranny. To go up anymore I think the entire hump with have to be rasied up. I have no problem doing it just really hate to start screwing up paint at this point.
I appreciate the measurement. I want to know how far it is actually off so I can see how extensive the mods will have to be. Might be such a thing as I have to gain a little on the tranny and a little on the air cleaner.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: astjp2]
#1345846
12/05/12 02:10 PM
12/05/12 02:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Quote:
You could alwasy put shear plates under the carbs to get the spacing you need...once you fix the alignment issues. What motor mounts are you using? You might be able to shim the K-member an 1/8 to 1/4 depending on what spindles you have. Tim
All are options. I want to start with the tranny and see what I can get their. I would rather redo the bottom of the air cleaner base then put shims under the carbs. The shims I think would be pretty visable, plus they would actually have to be tappered to work.
Could shime the K-Frame down but then the entire shaker would sit too low. The back has to come up, no other way around it. Motor mounts are stock.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345847
12/05/12 03:03 PM
12/05/12 03:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,329
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Well I did read on the forums and knew that the floor had to be moded on the passenger side to make it fit correct. That was no issue I did it. I didn't see it mensioned anywhere that the mount that is supplied with the kit actually drops the the tail shaft of the tranny below stock height which tips the engine back. The only way I would have know is to fully assemble the car shaker and all. I did have the tranny mounted in the car when doing the floor work, but how was I to know that the crossmember supplied drops the tranny.
I am not trying to blame anyone, just thinking of solutions. My first choice it going to be to raise the tunnel, but I have to see if I can hide it under the consel or not. Just exploring options is all.
By the way it did not come from Keisler
I hate to Monday morning QB this but it's pretty easy to tell that the mount supplied by Kiesler changes the driveline angle. I don't think you have to raise the whole tunnel , you should be able to get most of the upward travel you need from cutting the crossmember out and adding in a rolled piece of flat stock in it's place? Dayclona can answer that better.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: JohnRR]
#1345848
12/05/12 04:07 PM
12/05/12 04:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Quote:
I hate to Monday morning QB this but it's pretty easy to tell that the mount supplied by Kiesler changes the driveline angle. I don't think you have to raise the whole tunnel , you should be able to get most of the upward travel you need from cutting the crossmember out and adding in a rolled piece of flat stock in it's place? Dayclona can answer that better.
Well it is pretty hard to tell when you don't have an original tranny, engine, or crossmember to know. Car was a shell when I got it. Anyways the cross member it not the issue, I can shim the tranny up about 3/8" then the top of the tranny hits the tunnel, that is the problem.
In my opinion they should state very clearly that the output shaft is being dropped X inches with this crossmember. They should also offer a cross member that keeps it at the right height and leave the problem of fitting the floor to the customer. Oh well, guess I can't say much yet until I check the drive line angle and get a dimension on where it should be, maybe it is not that far off.....
Again this did not come from KIESLER, I have never delt with them. Could be the same mount I have no idea.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345849
12/05/12 05:30 PM
12/05/12 05:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,167
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,167
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Quote:
Quote:
I hate to Monday morning QB this but it's pretty easy to tell that the mount supplied by Kiesler changes the driveline angle. I don't think you have to raise the whole tunnel , you should be able to get most of the upward travel you need from cutting the crossmember out and adding in a rolled piece of flat stock in it's place? Dayclona can answer that better.
Well it is pretty hard to tell when you don't have an original tranny, engine, or crossmember to know. Car was a shell when I got it. Anyways the cross member it not the issue, I can shim the tranny up about 3/8" then the top of the tranny hits the tunnel, that is the problem.
In my opinion they should state very clearly that the output shaft is being dropped X inches with this crossmember. They should also offer a cross member that keeps it at the right height and leave the problem of fitting the floor to the customer. Oh well, guess I can't say much yet until I check the drive line angle and get a dimension on where it should be, maybe it is not that far off.....
Again this did not come from KIESLER, I have never delt with them. Could be the same mount I have no idea.
Regardless of who's kit you have, I don't care if you name the vendor, they have all copied the original Keisler design, and whether they have altered it or not, all the kits out there have compromised driveline angle to appease the purist (esp the Mopar crowd) who don't want to modify the floor board/hump, that being reiterated...
I measured my 71 Challenger, factory 4spd set up, all factory parts,...measuring from the output shaft centerline at the tailshaft to the top of the tranny sheetmetal hump (the hump center in the car is the same, 4spd or auto, as this is part of the original floor that is not cut for a 4 spd hump, factory or not) is approx 3 1/2"...now sheetmetal can vary between vehicles, so I also measured from the inboard transmission crossmember bolt, up to the tailshaft/output centerline, this is approx 3", now the TKO is slightly longer, your wheelbase is 2" shorter than a Challenger so keep this in mind when setting your driveline angle,...forget about the Shaker gap, don't use that as the criteria for setting the engine, if you know the rear pinion is set at factory angle, use that as your guidline in establishing the proper angle for the engine/tranny, you have to do this with the car sitting at ride height/suspension loaded, a 4 post drive on lift helps....your rear piniom should be between 3-5 degrees, do purchase an inclination meter, otherwise your just guessing...The engine/transmission need to be on parallel planes with one another, you want no more than a 2 degree deflection angle on the driveshaft based on whatever your pinion angle measures out at, otherwise driveline vibration will be your next problem, along with accelerated U joint failure...
be prepared to pull the transmission, and don't be afraid of cutting off bosses/flanges etc off the tranny to accommodate clearance needed, you may find that between massaging the tunnel/hump with a BFH and trimming the transmission down of excess casting that you can tuck it up higher...the early TKO kits (regardless of vendor) left the tranny untouched, with the exception of where the shifter was to be relocated, the TKO is a very tall case, the main areas of interferance in the E body tunnel are the passenger side along the top of the case to floor, lots of trimming can be done to remove unneeded tabs/flanges/casting on the tranny, the next problem area is the transmission crossmember brace that follows the floor/hump, I find that if you trim off the casting fin along the top of the tailshaft, you can gain considerable upward movement of the tailshaft, the relocated shift tower, make sure that is coming thru the factory 4 spd shifter opening with out hitting any of the surrounding sheetmetal in the opening....and being a BBlk (HEMI) application be sure to check the bellhousing to firewall/floor flange, you may need to bend some of the lip forward towards the front of car, as you relocate the transmission tailshaft higher into the car, I'll assume your using Schummacher swap mounts?...they can sometimes sit the engine higher, further complicating the matter, you may find yourself shimming the K frame lower, and raising the tailshaft to find that "happy place" for all the components involved...I've done quite a few TKO swaps, A.B.E smblk/BBlk/HEMI, Schummacher mounts, etc....or factory stuff, floor mods and tranny trimming are a must to tuck the tranny up there, but I've never had to hack a transmiision floor crossmember up,...you will need to fab a spacer between the transmission and the supplied transmission mout when you have achieved the desired/proper driveline angle.
Mike
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