|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: Slant6pak]
#1319642
10/14/12 11:37 AM
10/14/12 11:37 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
|
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
|
I'd think it be very easy. 383 or 400 w/ a 440 crank, 10:1, ported stealth heads, cleaned up mani's, DP4B, custom hydro cam, 750HP carb, good ignitions system and you should have an easy 425.
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1319643
10/14/12 01:28 PM
10/14/12 01:28 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
|
Here is a rescipe for you. Not exactly what you asked for but very economical build with good results. 451- 400 block, 10.5 compression with KB reverse dome pistons .040 quench, pocket ported 452 heads with stock valves, Hughes 223-230 at 50 cam with 1.6 rockers, hp manifolds and ported cast iron intake with 440 avs. Best 1/8 mile pass was 7.77 at 87 mph in a 3860 lbs Super Bee, never dynoed it but I feel it was close to your goal and had a very stock idle
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: HPMike]
#1319645
10/14/12 01:42 PM
10/14/12 01:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Why is stroking out of the question?
My intake and exhaust manifolds are limiting factors... I don't want them choking the extra cubes. I'm also building a clone and starting with nothing... I could build a 440 if I wanted too, but I want the smaller displacement faster revving engine.
I hoping to fit the car with the one of the new Passon 5-speeds, with a 4.10 Sure Grip out back.
I'm also not opposed to aluminum heads vs. ported stock. I'm looking at "gasp" Stealth heads (I'm fully aware of their issues with valve locks) for no other reason other than that they appear fairly stock on the outside.
I would build a 400 , but if you you are stuck on a 383 then you can do that with flat tops and CLOSED chamber heads , buy the stealths , CNC'd would be the best choice that way they actually flow as claimed. build for no more than 10.5 compression , with alum heads , otherwise keep it at 10.0 max with closed chamber iron , 9.5 if you use open chamber heads  , this will keep you pump gas friendly and make the power you want. I would use a flat tappet solid cam and ductile 1.5 rockers.
Andy F made over 550hp with stock iron manifolds , just pay attention to port mismatch with your heads so they aren't the cork you think for what you want to build.
Broken record time .... unless it's a CUSTOM PISTON ... no company makes a quench dome piston for a 383 ... no one ....
An honest 425 horse on a legit dyno with a 10:1 383, exhaust manifolds, iron heads, and that intake is no easy feat...Not saying it can't be done, but it won't be like falling off a log. 
MB
But Mike , there is a mopar muscle article from back in the early part of the last decade that made it look easy as pie ....
 ...
I know it is not an easy feat , though many think it is .
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1319648
10/14/12 05:30 PM
10/14/12 05:30 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
dulcich
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
|
[quote} But Mike , there is a mopar muscle article from back in the early part of the last decade that made it look easy as pie .... ... I know it is not an easy feat , though many think it is .
Well, John, I guess if you are referring to this story your memory might be failing you. I don't see 425 hp with stock exhaust manifolds and intake manifold.
383; RESTO TO RAD
Building Mopar’s Underrated Big Block
Text and Photography by Steve Dulcich
What’s not to like about the 383? It seems that these engines have fallen somewhat out of favor in recent years as attention has turned to big blocks of ever increasing cubic inches. For a moderate investment, a 383 can be built into a sweet high-revving powerhouse. Study the 383’s numbers compared to the popular engines of the competition. The 383 carries a bore and stroke of 4.25”x3.375”, while the 396 Rat had a embarrassingly undersized bore of 4.094”, and a 3.766” stroke - as long of an arm as a 440. At the Ford camp, the 390 was even worse, with a bore only slightly bigger than a 340 at 4.050”, and again a 440ish stroke length of 3.780”. The 383 was a thoroughbred by comparison to the competition’s similarly-sized big blocks. In fact, the FE Ford fan’s coveted 427 block had less bore diameter than the dirt-common Mopar 383. Even the Chevy guys’ big guns, the 427 rat and the 454 had bores no bigger than Chrysler’s 383. You won’t see Ford or Chevy fans passing up 427 FE's or 427 and 454 Rats, but we tend to walk by those 383s with nary a second look. Why?
We decided to explore the 383’s hidden potential. Anyone who remembers the 383 equipped musclecars knows that these engines can run. Garden variety 383 RoadRunners, Superbees, Challengers, ‘Cudas and A-bodies vastly outnumbered the more exotic Hemi and Sixpack cars back in the day, and these 383 cars contributed far more to the musclecar mystique and legend than they are given credit for today. We decided to put a 383 together to blueprint-stock specs, and see just how much power a stock 383 put out. We also know that the 383 was one of the most modified engine ever installed in performance cars, responding eagerly to basic bolt-on speed equipment. To tap into that potential, we’ll baseline the stock engine on the dyno, and then use some of today’s best performance hardware, taking our 383 from resto-stock to racy-rad.
THE BUILD
Our goal was to start with a stock-spec 383, built to match the 383 Magnum engines of yesterday. As we started with a well-worn core, the crank was already ground down to the minimum, and the block was already bored .030”. Taking the block out to .060”-over didn’t have us worried, but we were still left with finding a crank. We tapped into PAW’s extensive catalogue for their SuperStock master kit, which includes a crankshaft, rods, pistons, rings, bearings, gasket, oil pump, timing set, cam, and lifters – basically everything we would need to make our 383 as good as new. A few upgrades we made to the base kit, including custom balancing, moly rings, chrome moly rod bolts, and a high volume oil pump. These low-cost options on the PAW kit were well worth the price for the sake of performance and reliability.
Also on our list of upgrades was a set of KB-162 Hypereutectic pistons. These pistons are designed to give approximately the stock compression ratio, but have generous valve notches allowing us to move to a fairly aggressive camshaft later on. For the baseline, a Resto-spec Mopar Performance “RoadRunner” cam and lifter package were specified as an extra cost option, since we were looking to duplicate a factory 383 Magnum for our initial configuration. We were also short an oil pan, so a PAW unpainted steel replacement sump was ordered, along with a dipstick and tube kit. Even though we were starting with little more than the original block, the PAW kit made building a balanced and blueprinted 383 bottom-end surprisingly affordable, and very easy.
With the required parts in hand, all we had to contend with was the block machining. The block was handed off to Jim Grubbs Motorsports, in Valencia, CA. Jim’s crew cleaned our 383 block, bored the block, and honed it with torque plates to fanatical precision. The block was decked squared to the crank centerline using a BHJ indexing fixture on Grubbs’ Rottler mill. A cut of .010” on our previously machine block gave us a zero deck height with our KB Hypereutectic pistons. That’s all the machining we needed for this project. We already had a set of fresh #906 cylinder heads, rebuilt to stock specs with the original 2.08/1.74” valves, which we had previously rebuilt ourselves with new guides and a Serdi valvejob.
Using the PAW kit and Grubbs-machined block we had all the components ready to put together our 383 in a remarkably short time. Since this was to be a basic stock rebuild, the actual assembly was very quick, simple and trouble-free. The stock #906 heads were milled .020” to compensate for the thicker replacement head gasket, reducing the chamber volume from the stock 87 to 83cc. The deep valve notches in the KB pistons (6cc) coupled with the 84cc open chamber heads gave us a compression ratio of 9.2:1. Overall it was a 383 just like Chrysler used to build. We gathered up an original 383 Magnum AVS carb, the correct #666 iron intake manifold, a real set of factory high performance exhaust manifolds. Overlooking the Mopar electronic ignition distributor, installed more for reliability than performance, our 383 on the engine stand was like artifact from the past. We had only one question … How much power would it make?
TRUTH OR LIES
Much has been said of the horsepower numbers game in the musclecar era. Sometimes the claim is made that the gross ratings were wildly optimistic. In some cases, the assertion is that certain engines were “Seriously under-rated”. We’ve been here before, and generally found that Chrysler was fairly accurate in its ratings compared to dyno numbers we’ve seen on stock engines. We dutifully loaded our 383 onto the SuperFlow dyno at Westech to see how many of the factory-rated 335 horses were real or imagined. The 383 sparked instantly to life, and we were struck by how mellow it sounded through the factory manifolds. After the customary break-in cycle, we let the 383 fly. The readout at the end of the pull showed 335.2 HP @ 5000 RPM, and 392 Ft lbs @ 3600. 335 HP indeed. We adjusted the timing from 35 degrees total to 38, and ran a couple of back-up pulls. The 383 responded with 338 HP @ 5000, and 394.6 ft lbs @ 3600 RPM. No, Ma Mopar wasn’t lying when she hung the numbers on the high performance 383.
POWER MODS
While 338 HP for any stock engine is very respectable, we really wanted to explore the power producing potential of the 383. This time around, we would keep the basic 383 long-block package stock, but shake out some of the power hidden within with basic bolt-ons. Our first target was the same chosen by countless thousands of 383 owners over the years, adding a set of tube headers. We pulled down the magnum manifolds and replaced them with a set of Hooker #5101-1 headers. Was much to be gained over the sleek high performance manifolds? The headers added a solid 15-25 ft lbs of torque across the full range of our test RPMs. That’s added power you’d definitely feel.
Next, we set our sights on the original AVS carb. We went straight to kill here with an 850 Demon carb. The 850 may be considered too much at this mild state of tune, but with our subsequent modification plan, it would be just enough. The added airflow was a definite improvement, with the 383 now edging up to 367.2 @ 5100 RPM, and 434 ft-lbs @ 3600. Contrary to conventional wisdom, we found the big carb actually added substantially to torque in the lower to midrange, up as much as 25 ft lbs. The top-end numbers were also up, the gains weren’t as dramatic. We knew exactly what was holding the 383 back at higher Rpm’s, that big heavy chunk of cast iron sitting under the carb.
To unlock the 383s breathing efficiency, our next mod was to swap the stock iron intake for Mopar Performance M-1 single plane manifold. With the intake change, the visual character of our 383 was transformed. It was finally looking like a performance mill. Our next pull showed that looks were more than skin deep, with the dyno numbers now catapulting to 406 HP @ 5400 RPM, and 433 ft-lbs @ 4000. True to form, we lost a handful of ft-lbs down low in going from a dual plane to a single plane, but we gained huge up top. Yes, 383s can make power, and make it cheap. We had a rebuilt stock engine, with headers, a carb, and intake, and were churning better than 400 HP. We were impressed.
Our final mod, not surprisingly, was a good old-fashioned cam swap. There was, however, nothing old-fashioned about the grind. Competition Cams has recently introduced a line of Mopar specific high-lift camshafts. We were eager to try one of the new Comp bumpsticks, and ordered up an XE285HL-10. This is a fairly serious hydraulic profile, rated at 285/297 degrees gross duration, and specing out at 241/247 degrees duration @ .050”, with .545”/.545” lift, on a 110 degree lobe separation. The cam was degreed-in at four degrees advance, and topped with a set of matching Comp lifters. We upped the valvesprings at the same time to Comp’s # 924 dual-spring assemblies, since the high-lift cam requires much more spring than the stock 383 cam. We were still budget-conscious with this engine, and elected to retain the stock 383’s valvetrain.
Back up and running with the big stick, the 383 had a much weightier thump. With the stock heads the cam would likely not realize its full potential with our present combo, but we still expected a gain, and expected to pull higher RPMs. With that in mind, the dyno controls were reset to 6200 RPM, and we opened the 383 up once again. It pulled cleanly through the revs, and we now had a 455 HP 383. Peak power was actually 454.9HP @ 6000 RPM, and 456.6 ft lbs @ 4800. With the big cam we lost 5-10 HP at the bottom of our test range, but from the midrange up the Comp stick just pulled away like a freight train, posting a gain of nearly 50 HP. The useable RPM range of the engine was extended by better than 500 RPM in the bargain. We have to say we were impressed with the 383. Stock other than headers, cam, intake, and carb, we were solidly over 450 HP. That’s dollar value per horsepower.
DYNO RESULTS
HORSEPOWER
SUPERFLOW 901 DYNO
TESTED AT WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP
TORQUE
RPM STK HDRS CARB INTKE CAM
3000 382.7 406.3 427.1 405.5 394.2
3200 388.1 406.6 422.6 410.9 400.0
3400 388.3 412.6 431.9 421.2 414.7
3600 394.6 411.2 433.7 426.1 431.5
3800 392.4 408.3 430.8 430.0 435.5
4000 387.2 401.3 424.6 433.0 446.5
4200 377.8 396.2 416.4 430.1 451.5
4400 371.4 390.2 409.7 430.1 451.8
4600 367.8 384.6 402.0 427.8 454.2
4800 361.6 379.5 398.5 424.3 456.6
5000 355.1 373.4 385.6 421.3 450.3
5200 337.2 357.8 368.1 407.7 449.1
5400 322.8 348.5 351.4 395.1 435.8
5600 xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 417.0
5800 xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 407.6
6000 xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 398.2
HORSEPOWER
RPM STK HDRS CARB INTKE CAM
3000 218.6 232.1 244.0 231.6 225.2
3200 236.5 247.7 257.5 250.3 243.7
3400 251.4 267.1 279.6 272.7 268.5
3600 270.5 281.9 297.3 292.1 295.8
3800 283.9 295.4 311.7 311.1 315.1
4000 294.9 305.6 323.4 329.8 340.0
4200 302.1 316.8 333.0 343.9 361.1
4400 311.1 326.9 343.2 360.4 378.5
4600 322.2 336.8 352.1 374.7 397.8
4800 330.5 346.8 364.2 387.8 417.3
5000 338.0 355.5 367.1 401.1 428.7
5200 333.9 354.2 364.5 403.7 444.6
5400 331.9 358.3 361.3 406.3 448.1
5600 xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 444.6
5800 xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 450.1
6000 xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 454.9
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: dannysbee]
#1319649
10/14/12 08:56 PM
10/14/12 08:56 PM
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
master
|
master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'd love to see dyno sheets of all these pump gas, stock stroke, iron headed 383's, with stock logs making honest 425+ HP. Easy? I dont think so...
MB
The combo I posted was never dynoed but it would run 110- 111 in the quarter and at 3860 I am pretty sure it was in the 425 ball park.
Of coarse at 451" it was stock 440 stroke. This was a low budget build with good machine work. Car was street driven and made 100's of pass shifted at 5500. I would not hesitate to build another one just like it.
With all due respect, its not a 383...Sounds like a nice little combo, though...
All I am saying is that if you read some of the replies in this thread you would think that making 425+ hp out of a stockish, pump gas 383 with manifolds is childs play..
I say no way...
MB
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: HPMike]
#1319650
10/15/12 04:23 AM
10/15/12 04:23 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
With all due respect, its not a 383...Sounds like a nice little combo, though...
MB
What's 67 cubes between friends ??? 
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: dulcich]
#1319651
10/15/12 04:27 AM
10/15/12 04:27 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
Well, John, I guess if you are referring to this story your memory might be failing you. I don't see 425 hp with stock exhaust manifolds and intake manifold.
Yes that would be it Steve , I guess that infamous west coast dyno wasn't as happy as usual on that day ...
Lots of good work in that build, keep up the good work. 
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: HPMike]
#1319652
10/15/12 04:34 AM
10/15/12 04:34 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
deaks
master
|
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'd love to see dyno sheets of all these pump gas, stock stroke, iron headed 383's, with stock logs making honest 425+ HP. Easy? I dont think so...
MB
With all due respect, its not a 383...Sounds like a nice little combo, though...
All I am saying is that if you read some of the replies in this thread you would think that making 425+ hp out of a stockish, pump gas 383 with manifolds is childs play..
I say no way...
MB
I agree, Dwayne porter aside. My friend ran a full weight satellite + 260# driver, it had the old TRW domes, ported 906 heads, headers, rpm intake, 750 D/P, .255/265 at .050 crower solid cam, 3500 converter and ran 12.4 at 110 with the exhaust uncorked. According to the wallace calc, his speed is around 420 HP but his et is under 400.
Mick
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200#
best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft
best 60ft 1.36
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: dulcich]
#1319653
10/16/12 10:58 PM
10/16/12 10:58 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 364
Houston, Texas
Slant6pak
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 364
Houston, Texas
|
Thank you to all who have replied. Below is the reason I don't want to build a stoker. Again I don't even have an engine right now... if I wanted more cubes I could simply locate another 440.... I want a faster revving engine paired to a nice manual trans that pulls strongly through the gears. My hp goal is general, if I make awesome if I get close that is fine as well. I'd be content with a stock 383 if I didn't feel I could improve its power for not much more money that a stock type rebuild and head work. I have had my fair share of torque monsters... I'm tired of replacing tires. Quote:
[quote}
What’s not to like about the 383? It seems that these engines have fallen somewhat out of favor in recent years as attention has turned to big blocks of ever increasing cubic inches. For a moderate investment, a 383 can be built into a sweet high-revving powerhouse. Study the 383’s numbers compared to the popular engines of the competition. The 383 carries a bore and stroke of 4.25”x3.375”, while the 396 Rat had a embarrassingly undersized bore of 4.094”, and a 3.766” stroke - as long of an arm as a 440. At the Ford camp, the 390 was even worse, with a bore only slightly bigger than a 340 at 4.050”, and again a 440ish stroke length of 3.780”. The 383 was a thoroughbred by comparison to the competition’s similarly-sized big blocks. In fact, the FE Ford fan’s coveted 427 block had less bore diameter than the dirt-common Mopar 383. Even the Chevy guys’ big guns, the 427 rat and the 454 had bores no bigger than Chrysler’s 383. You won’t see Ford or Chevy fans passing up 427 FE's or 427 and 454 Rats, but we tend to walk by those 383s with nary a second look. Why?
We decided to explore the 383’s hidden potential. Anyone who remembers the 383 equipped musclecars knows that these engines can run. Garden variety 383 RoadRunners, Superbees, Challengers, ‘Cudas and A-bodies vastly outnumbered the more exotic Hemi and Sixpack cars back in the day, and these 383 cars contributed far more to the musclecar mystique and legend than they are given credit for today.
2016 Challenger Scat Pack Shaker  1000 ci Brass Era Speedster project
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: gch]
#1319654
10/17/12 09:31 PM
10/17/12 09:31 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,144
Central NC
gch
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,144
Central NC
|
Quote:
No matter what you decide the power you want lies in the head/headwork.With a set of good flowing heads you can easily hit that goal with a 383.
Any larger displacement will only make it easier.
Just have a cam ground for manifolds and the DP4B intake will be a big help.Should be fun and quick enough.
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: Winchester 73]
#1319656
10/18/12 10:37 AM
10/18/12 10:37 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
andyF had built stock stroke 400 build that IIRC made 580HP through headers...
IIRC it had ported eddies (paint 'em and most won't notice), an eddie RPM, 800CFM eddie carb and a smallish solid roller cam, IIRC.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1319657
10/18/12 10:38 AM
10/18/12 10:38 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
Well, John, I guess if you are referring to this story your memory might be failing you. I don't see 425 hp with stock exhaust manifolds and intake manifold.
Yes that would be it Steve , I guess that infamous west coast dyno wasn't as happy as usual on that day ...
Lots of good work in that build, keep up the good work.
note, first mod was headers 
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: Stock appearing 425hp 383 possible?
[Re: patrick]
#1319661
10/18/12 03:20 PM
10/18/12 03:20 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,046
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,046
Oregon
|
Quote:
andyF had built stock stroke 400 build that IIRC made 580HP through headers...
IIRC it had ported eddies (paint 'em and most won't notice), an eddie RPM, 800CFM eddie carb and a smallish solid roller cam, IIRC.
That is all true, but that engine was also more of a race motor than a street motor. We had as much compression as we could fit into the combustion chambers. I think that engine was over 12:1. That was a killer motor. It went into a '72 Duster and the guy had a lot of fun on the street as well as the track.
|
|
|
|
|
