Need 383 help BAD!
#1287313
08/18/12 12:08 PM
08/18/12 12:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 28
bb489ss
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I'm new here to this forum, so hopefully someone can help. I had a reputable shop in my area do a cam swap for me yesterday. My motor specs are as follows:
1974 Dart 1971 383 Magnum (9.0-1) ported 452 heads with steel shim gaskets Performer RPM intake AED 750 DP Cam WAS a Comp XE 268 hydraulic headers Dana 60 with 4.10. 2400 stall Mopar electronic ignition with MSD box.
I went with a Mopar .484 hydraulic. It was installed straight up per their recommendation. (I was thinking 4 degress advanced). I know it may be a bit big for my 383, but I figured with the light car, gears, good intake and headers that I would get some more upper RPM power. Now keep in mind my motor ran great prior to yestedray, no ignition issues at all. Well, I picked the car up last night after hours and this is what I found. It fired right up. Idle was not adjusted so it barely idles in gear. Upon slow accleration, the carb spits and car almost stalls. This happens at every take off. Then the car feels like it is running on 5-6 cylinders. NO POWER at all. Frequent popping from header pipes (sounds like a backfire, but not as loud.) My tranny which normally shifts around 2800-3000 RPM at cruise now needs to go to over 4000 RPM to shift!!! I finally limp it home and look under the hood. They removed the timing tape from my balancer and did not replace it! And the same oil filter was on the motor that was there before I took it in!! So I'm assuming they never even changed the oil, who knows? I was so tired last night that all I was able to do was verify that the firing order was correct. They claimed that they had to replace some of my "burnt" plug wires and that they were having ignition problems, but I never had any ignition problems until it was at that shop. So suffice it to say, I am very angry. I had a great running car that now runs like crap (my Corrola could blow my Darts doors off). The only thing it does remotely decent is idle, as soon as you drive it sucks. It literally feels like if you removed 2 plug wires from the motor and tried to drive it. I don't even know where to start now. (I will be dealing with that shop on Monday) but don't want to take my car back there. I don't trust them. I would appreciate any and all recommendations Thanks
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287314
08/18/12 12:29 PM
08/18/12 12:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,540 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
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Double check the firing order 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2. Make sure the timing isn't advanced or retarded too much (distributor). Look for any vacuum hoses off. They may have got your cam a tooth off, did they degree it?
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287315
08/18/12 12:31 PM
08/18/12 12:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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it ran good with the comp XE then the shop swapped cams now it runs as described? I'm assuming they reused the timing chain/gears which'd eliminate that potential (mismarked gears). I'd turn the dampener timing marks to 15BTDC #1 compression then line up the magnet with the tooth that places the rotor under the #1 plug wire on the cap & retry it. They may have inadvertently retarded the cam but I'd talk to them before I opened it up that far. I would check the plugs/wires/reluctor gap. Holler how it turns out with them. EDIT they may have caused a vacuum leak at the valley pan
Last edited by RapidRobert; 08/18/12 12:33 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#1287317
08/18/12 12:42 PM
08/18/12 12:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Lots wrong here, 1st the old cam is a much better cam especailly for a 9:1 motor. Even when you get it going I doubt you'll see much if any improvement. 2nd take it back to the shop and demand it run right. Seems they probably don't know anything about older cars...at least mopars. The trans issues is because they dorked up the linkage, you will have to re-adjust it. Other than that YOU are going to have to start from scratch and TUNE it. You might need to also pull the carb and drop down the PV as the 484 will not pull great vaccum... if you need to know "how to tune" we can go more into details. Sorry for all of this. I think the best advise I can give is do it yourself. Not too many shops know how to work on older "hot rods"
NO WAY no how a 9:1 383 is going to have a clearance problem w/ a 484 cam. They just didn't want to degree it.
Last edited by Mr.Yuck; 08/18/12 12:45 PM.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287324
08/18/12 01:47 PM
08/18/12 01:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
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What else did the mess with maybe the lickdown linkage adjustment. Wonder if they plugged the vacuum advance into manifold vacuum to get it to idle many know nothings use this method to make a bigger cam idle at the expense of performance but it helps them idle well as it holds the timing up but when vacuum falls off as the throttle plates open the timing falls back too and the performance really sucks My honest opinion is the cam is retarded, the timing not advanced enough and maybe a band aid of the vacuum advance on manifold vacuum. and MR yuck is right on the PV number needing to be changed down. Also you could probably use a 3000 stall but you should be able to get it running much better than it is with a few tweeks!
Last edited by Dodgem; 08/18/12 01:51 PM.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287327
08/18/12 04:25 PM
08/18/12 04:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,141 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
RoadRunner
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Given that you got the car back running like crap, I would guess a bunch of things, most of whcih were mentioned here already. First, are you sure they broke in the cam properly? I assume hydraulic flat tappets. Did they use ZDDP additive or breakin oil? You may want to pull valve covers and look into the engine to see if you can verify you don't have wiped lobes already. It may be beneficial to make sure all the push rods are seated too. You didn't mention if you had an oil pressure gage and what it was reading. I have been able to pull lifters out using a small extension magnet (like Harbor Freight sells). You need to pull rocker shaft and push rods. The magenet fits into the push rod pocket and you can pull it out. Take a look at the lobe and bottom of lifter for proper wear. Do one at a time so you don't mix them up. I use the pick tool up to drop the lifter back into the bore and a thin wooden stick (marshmellow sticks in my case) to hold lifter back in bore while pulling magnet off the lifter.
Second, get the No.1 cylinder to TDC, verify timing mark, and pull distributor. The slot in the distributor gear should run along the axis of the cam. It may be off a tooth. You can compensate for that by rotating the distributor, but you will run out of timing adjustment as the vacuum advance can will hit the manifold or water neck before getting good adjustment. So getting it lined up is just good practice. With the slot orientated along the axis of the cam, the distributor rotor should be pretty close to No.1 cylinder on the cap (or 180 deg off, rotate as necassary). Some caps have two No.1s as mentioned. I think you want the one that is toward the cylinder head, not the one pointing towards the carb. If you have a manual (even a Chiltons) you will see what I mean.
OK, with that set, check the firing order on the wires and plugs. Sounds like you got it, but it never hurts to double check. At this point, I usually find an extra set of hands to start the car while I twist the distriubutor a tad to start the car up. I recurved my distributor to get me about 5 deg BTDC (IIRC) at 500 RPM, with full advance of 36 deg at 3000 rpm. I am not sure of initial, but I am sure of my full in. You will have to play with the distributor to get things initially started. Recurving is for another thread once you get this running.
The cam change will probably necessitate some carb changes. I'd think at a minimum idle misture screws and power valve. Once you get the idle and off idle set, go run it to see if you lean out to check main jets. Checking for vacuum leaks before making adjustments is key.
As I am mostly a pessimist, my guess is that your cam is wiped out. If they didn't change the oil (as you indicate by having same filter), I doubt they did anything to add proper protection on start up. And if its running like crap, I would bet they didn't run it in properly. Good luck.
Last edited by RoadRunner; 08/18/12 04:31 PM.
68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: Dodgem]
#1287330
08/18/12 06:19 PM
08/18/12 06:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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Quote:
I just installed a 509 in a 383 for a friend dot to dot with a new mancini timing set was 114 so 8 degrees retarded form 106
Which 509? Did you verify the LSA?
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287335
08/18/12 07:03 PM
08/18/12 07:03 PM
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Quote:
It is the 241 @ .050", 484 lift hydraulic. And yes, this shop had about 5 different muscle cars that they were working on, plus mine. They have been around for a while and were even on Garage TV at one time. But they won't be seeing me anymore i can tell you that!
There are two versions of that cam...which one did you get?
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287337
08/18/12 09:20 PM
08/18/12 09:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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Quote:
I found it strange that all of the plugs in cylinders 1,3,5 and 7 were fouled and all of the plugs in cylinders 2,4,6 and 8 looked good. Whats going on there?
Take a good look at the intake sealing on the driver's side, especially between the valley pan and the head. Sounds like it's sucking in oil (and air) on all four of those intake ports, which would also explain the poor idle
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: DrCharles]
#1287338
08/19/12 01:14 AM
08/19/12 01:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 843 Suffolk,VA
ireland383
super stock
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Suffolk,VA
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Quote:
Quote:
I found it strange that all of the plugs in cylinders 1,3,5 and 7 were fouled and all of the plugs in cylinders 2,4,6 and 8 looked good. Whats going on there?
Take a good look at the intake sealing on the driver's side, especially between the valley pan and the head. Sounds like it's sucking in oil (and air) on all four of those intake ports, which would also explain the poor idle
Yeah, it sounds like your jacked up on one side of your intake.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: ireland383]
#1287339
08/19/12 09:09 AM
08/19/12 09:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Why are there so many stories like this from "performance shops"
do you personally know the people who work at or own this shop? Who told you to go to them?
as previously asked...what IS their experience working on old carb'd engines?
I can't believe a shop would tell you that you DON'T want to degree in a cam and then not do it after you asked them to. They probably told you what they did because they don't have anyone there that knows how to degree a cam.
Makes you wonder if they did the proper cam break in or not? 20 minutes at 2000 rpm. I would call them and ask, if they didn't, I would go do it yourself now before you let that engine idle anymore. you could have a wiped lobe in your future if you don't.
Where do you live? maybe you can find a member here who can stop by to help you out?
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287341
08/19/12 10:27 AM
08/19/12 10:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
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Degreeing the cam in with a little extra advance would have help some to then a nice 2800/3000 stall. You may need a little more idle advance yet around 30 so lighter dizzy advance springs may be in order. Yo can turn it up to 30 initial and that is 46 total to play with idle and in gear idle to see what it needs don't drive till you turn it back to 38 total!
Last edited by Dodgem; 08/19/12 10:28 AM.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: Dodgem]
#1287342
08/19/12 12:36 PM
08/19/12 12:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,476 Dandridge TN
Dabee
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Quote:
Degreeing the cam in with a little extra advance would have help some to then a nice 2800/3000 stall.
I had the same cam in the 440 I had in my 69 Bee. That cam doesn’t make good power until 3200 RPM and above. I would go with a good 3200 to 3400 stall converter. I had a 2000 rpm stall in mine for a while and the car was a real dog until 32000 rpm then it was hold on. I put a 3400 stall in it and it became a beast off the line.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: Dodgem]
#1287345
08/19/12 12:57 PM
08/19/12 12:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,476 Dandridge TN
Dabee
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Quote:
I had the same cam in the 440 I had in my 69 Bee. That cam doesn’t make good power until 3200 RPM and above. I would go with a good 3200 to 3400 stall converter. I had a 2000 rpm stall in mine for a while and the car was a real dog until 32000 rpm then it was hold on. I put a 3400 stall in it and it became a beast off the line.
32000 RPM russ it's not a jolly Green turbine!
Canadian
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: 383man]
#1287348
08/20/12 12:35 AM
08/20/12 12:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
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Quote:
I had that cam in my old 383 Dart. It was a very mild 383 with 9.5 comp and 452 heads with mild porting I put the cam in at 104 installed centerline. The car had a Turbo Action tight 3000 converter and 3.91's. Eddy RPM intake and 750 DP. It ran very good with a best et of 12.31 @ 110. Good luck with yours and glad to hear you got it running good. Ron
yea get a good 3000 maybe talk to John Cope he sells PTC and they are good https://www.coperacingtrans.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=a47b579864b6fe200757837f2a6ed2ad ultimate or dynamic but trust us don't save 200 and be sorry later! and if its a little off buy the stuff and degree the cam up a bit over the winter if it needs one last tweek! 104 i agree
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287352
08/20/12 10:46 AM
08/20/12 10:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,476 Dandridge TN
Dabee
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Quote:
So I figure stall converter of 3000-3400 then? Which brand should I go with? Are there specific converters for the Mopar 727 trans?
Call PTC and give them your engine/cam specs and they will set you up with the proper convertor for your combo.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: ChristianCuda]
#1287353
08/20/12 10:53 AM
08/20/12 10:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
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484 and 509 cams run like raped apes when degreed and set up properly. They were and are really hard to beat problem I found is they are more often than not actually retarded dot to dot from the recommended 106 install and 3 to 5 deg advanced from where you regularly find them makes them respond in amazing fashion. Found a 509 once in at 108.25 advanced it to 103.5 and wow guy could not believe the change already had a 3000 stall and I had told him he would not need a 4000! Just did a 509 in a 383 new Mancini timing set dot to dot it was in at wait for it......... 114 wow. That's 7.5 retarded form recommended install and 10 to 12 back from where I would like to have gone. then at the 4 advance keyway put it at 106.5 thats close tried it a dozen ways including another new gear set the same all numbers came out the same and since it had a slot in the top gear could not drill and use offset bushing. It will be fine at 106.5 (4 speed 4.56 gear) 103 would have been better and 114 woul have sucked pig time and may even have hit exhaust valves!
Last edited by Dodgem; 08/20/12 10:54 AM.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: Dodgem]
#1287354
08/20/12 12:38 PM
08/20/12 12:38 PM
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bb489ss
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First I want to thank everyone for all the replies. I know my new cam probably isn't the best for my combo but I did a lot of research on the internet and basically found some people loved them, and some people hated them. I also read several posts on-line of guys with virtually the same set-up I have running mid 12's with that cam. I can say now from 1st hand experience that that 484 cam I have in there now is just a tad lazier at the bottom than the Comp 268 that was in there, but I think a higher stall converter will help that out a lot. I can also say that from around 2500 rpm up, the 484 pulls harder than my 268. I mean it actually snapped my neck back. I wasn't expecting that! And with my 4.10 gears I'm right at that RPM frequently on the street. I'm going to start tweaking the carb (need new power valve I'm sure) and then get a higher stall, and see how she responds before I start tearing into the motor again. Although I gotta say I would like to learn to degree a cam.
Also, when I adjusted the timing this is what happened. I advanced the dizzy clockwise as far as it would turn and still couldn't get enough advance (could only get to 0 degrees). So I changed the wire positions, moving each one over clockwise one terminal on the cap and adjusted timing. I think that the dizzy was reinstalled one tooth off (in this case retarded). As far as the timing tape being removed, I have no idea why. And the reason I am going to replace it is because the timing tab doesn't go that high and I like setting my total first and then inital.
Last edited by bb489ss; 08/20/12 12:40 PM.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: stumpy]
#1287356
08/20/12 01:29 PM
08/20/12 01:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,540 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
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If the shop installed the intermediate shaft a tooth off it would, in effect, make the distributor a tooth off.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287359
08/20/12 03:10 PM
08/20/12 03:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Quote:
I just got a call from the owner of the shop and and e-mail from his wife (who works there too). The said they were extremely shocked and embarrassed by what had happened. They said the guy who worked on my car was fired as of today and that they will come and pick up my car at my house and trailer it to the shop, take everything apart and check it all out, degree the cam and install at 104 ICL like I want, tune it and time it and stated "I will not let that car out of my shop until it runs perfect"---all at no charge. The owner really sounded sincere and apologetic. I think I will let them take it back and see what they can do. Again, many people in my area take their cars there and couldn't believe what happened to me. I will keep you all posted as to what happens.
I would have them pull the intake too, and to check the cam/lifters. if they fired the guy because he didn't know what he was doing, you gotta wonder if he broke in the cam properly, with 20 minutes at 2000 rpm to establish a wear pattern for the lifters to the lobes. if that never happened, you could be eating away cam lobes right now, and could be just a few short miles away from requiring a full engine rebuild from all the metal that ends up in the oil and through the entire engine.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287362
08/20/12 07:08 PM
08/20/12 07:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I just got a call from the owner of the shop and and e-mail from his wife (who works there too). The said they were extremely shocked and embarrassed by what had happened. They said the guy who worked on my car was fired as of today and that they will come and pick up my car at my house and trailer it to the shop, take everything apart and check it all out, degree the cam and install at 104 ICL like I want, tune it and time it and stated "I will not let that car out of my shop until it runs perfect"---all at no charge. The owner really sounded sincere and apologetic. I think I will let them take it back and see what they can do. Again, many people in my area take their cars there and couldn't believe what happened to me. I will keep you all posted as to what happens.
that is good news...
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1287363
08/20/12 07:33 PM
08/20/12 07:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 28
bb489ss
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I think they will too. I was at the shop today and they were very apologetic and had me write down everything I wanted done and they would do it one by one. I did verify a vacuum leak at the intake manifold at both intake ports on the passenger side. When I sprayed brake cleaner there the idle slowed down quite a bit. And yes, the guy re-used the old valley pan gasket with minimal sealer that I could see. So I told the shop to use a new one. I also told them to degree the cam and install it 104. I gotta say though, even the way that cam is in there now, the car flat out carries the mail!!!! It pulls hard and noticeably more than the 268. I know a lot of people don't like those 484 cams, but damn, it sure seems to work well in my application! I'm hoping even better with it degreed and advanced.
Last edited by bb489ss; 08/20/12 07:39 PM.
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Re: Need 383 help BAD!
[Re: bb489ss]
#1287365
08/20/12 08:00 PM
08/20/12 08:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,815 Sobieski Wi
bee1971
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Will bee interesting to read your posts on the difference between straight up and degreed once it's done. Will like to hear your report on what you think. Been running mine straight up for fifteen years. Wouldn't change a thing
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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