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505cui stroker - dished or flat ? #1279183
08/04/12 02:47 PM
08/04/12 02:47 PM
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505cui - Stroker question:

I was reading that many people are happy with their 440source-stroker kits.
I’ve two of these sets in the focus:

One with dished pistons and the flat version.
Since I’m looking for the lighter one, the flat would be my first choice.
Does anyone know how much more grams the dished version has? They do not have this data on their page.
Secondly the alu heads I have are around 75cc. This will pump the cr to 12.3:1 with the flats.
Which is a ‘lil too much for a street-friendly ride I think. I’d be more happy with cr around 11:1 to 11.5:1

Should I get the dished version with 10.9:1 or taking the flats including thicker (0.60 or 0.80) gaskets ? Or do I run with the thicker gaskets in other problems?

thanks

Last edited by smoke; 08/04/12 07:32 PM.
Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279184
08/04/12 06:03 PM
08/04/12 06:03 PM
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I use these 440Source dished pistons on my 493. I also used Indy EZ heads that were 75cc and at zero deck with the flattop I was at about 11.8. With these dished pistons I came in around 10.0 I think as we cut the heads a tad to get 10.6 as I built it with quench and for pump gas. I believe the dish area is 24cc. 10.6 has worked good for me using pump gas. I prefer having a tad more comp with quench then less comp with no quench. Ron


Last edited by 383man; 08/04/12 06:05 PM.
Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: 383man] #1279185
08/04/12 09:34 PM
08/04/12 09:34 PM
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It depends on which heads you are running. If you are using closed chamber aluminum heads, best is to set it up for .040" quench... meaning the top of the piston comes up within .040" from the head at TDC. The easiest way to do this is to set up the engine at zero deck: the flat of the piston comes right up to the top of the block deck. Then use a .040 head gasket to dial in the quench.

With this setup, you will need a D shaped dish to get compression ratio in the 10.0 - 10.5 range for pump gas.

A stroker almost always needs the dish to achieve a pump gas compression ratio.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279186
08/04/12 10:21 PM
08/04/12 10:21 PM
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Quote:

505cui - Stroker question:

I was reading that many people are happy with their 440source-stroker kits.
I’ve two of these sets in the focus:

One with dished pistons and the flat version.
Since I’m looking for the lighter one, the flat would be my first choice.
Does anyone know how much more grams the dished version has? They do not have this data on their page.
Secondly the alu heads I have are around 75cc. This will pump the cr to 12.3:1 with the flats.
Which is a ‘lil too much for a street-friendly ride I think. I’d be more happy with cr around 11:1 to 11.5:1

Should I get the dished version with 10.9:1 or taking the flats including thicker (0.60 or 0.80) gaskets ? Or do I run with the thicker gaskets in other problems?

thanks


My 518 C.I. 400 stroker has a set of Ross custom 22 CC dish(complete dish, not reverse domes) that where originally set up at -.025 deck height with 84 CC open chamber iron heads and a Fel Pro .042 thick head gasket, that ended up making 9.25 to 1 comp. ratio. I switched heads two years later to a set of Eddy RPM(closed chambers) with 84.cc,I also switched the crankshaft from 4.25 stroke to 4.300 to make the motor a zero deck with Eddy RPM heads, I later switched those heads to a set of Indy SR with 75 CC chambers, ended up with 10.78 to 1 comp. with a .054 thick Cometic head gasket. It is barely pump gas friendly using Oregon non ethanol premium If I had to do it over I would start out with a reverse dome piston so I could get a decent quinch area in the top of the cylinders, not a complete dish piston


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1279187
08/05/12 05:39 AM
08/05/12 05:39 AM
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Thanks for all of your input.

Yes the heads are indy 440 EZ opened to mw-size. They should have
75cc. But i'll check to be sure.

It seems that all of you are valueing the quench (this means going with heavier dished pistons) much higher than the weight advance of the flats (and using thicker gaskets).
Is there no way to combine flat pistons and quench in this stroker build? Machining the pistons? What costs to expect roughly?

________________________________
regards

Last edited by smoke; 08/05/12 12:57 PM.
Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279188
08/05/12 08:40 AM
08/05/12 08:40 AM
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I believe the dish will always be a little heavier than a flat top of the same basic construction.

Either one of these made in forged aluminum is much lighter than a factory original cast piston. The slight additional weight of the dish shouldn't be a limiting factor on your build in terms of RPM or power. The heads will be done by 7000 EPM max. The lighter piston will rev a little faster.

If you really want a lighter piston or want to dial in the dish size exactly or both you can go the custom piston route.

Ross, JE, Diamond and others will maked a piston to your specs. They also offer additional lightening operations to machine out all un-needed weight. I used Ross custom on my 496 a few years ago to get the exact compression height, dish size and compression ratio I wanted. At that time, a custom dish was +/- $700. I don't know the going rate today. Extra lightening operations could add $100-$200. I worked with Muscle Motors to spec out and supply the rotating assembly. MM prefered Ross at that time so that's what I used.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279189
08/05/12 11:04 AM
08/05/12 11:04 AM
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The flat tops have the same quench 0 deck them and use a .039 head gasket. so what cam converter and gears??

also what is the intended use?

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: Dodgem] #1279190
08/05/12 11:40 AM
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Quote:

so what cam converter and gears?? also what is the intended use?




@dodgem,

compcams suggested a hydraulic cam for maintanance reasons.
They offered: Thumpr™, 283THR7
Car will be 4 speed with 3,54 gears
street use, maybe once/twice seeing the strip.
slightly rough idle accepted

question: Is there an hp-advantage zero-decking vs. -0.015 "in the hole" ?

Best,
smoke

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279191
08/05/12 11:57 AM
08/05/12 11:57 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

so what cam converter and gears?? also what is the intended use?




@dodgem,

compcams suggested a hydraulic cam for maintanance reasons.
They offered: Thumpr™, 283THR7
Car will be 4 speed with 3,54 gears
street use, maybe once/twice seeing the strip.
slightly rough idle accepted

question: Is there an hp-advantage zero-decking vs. -0.015 "in the hole" ?

Best,
smoke




Being a street car I would run the dish piston at
0 deck, .039 gasket... that'll give you the quench
and your comp that you want... it would end up saving
you money(if you go with Felpro gaskets)... then if
you want(and probably should) you can advance the
cam for better low end power... which closes the
intake valve sooner on the piston stroke.... remember
that the static compression is just a math number and
the dynamic is when comp really starts so the CAM is
the big part

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279192
08/05/12 03:48 PM
08/05/12 03:48 PM
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Quote:

Thanks for all of your input.

Yes the heads are indy 440 EZ opened to mw-size. They should have
75cc. But i'll check to be sure.

It seems that all of you are valueing the quench (this means going with heavier dished pistons) much higher than the weight advance of the flats (and using thicker gaskets).
Is there no way to combine flat pistons and quench in this stroker build? Machining the pistons? What costs to expect roughly?

________________________________
regards






Doesn't the source use KB Icon forged pistons ? With a little searching on the internet I find the KB Icon flat top at 577g and the dish at 592g , hardly anything to worry about .

You want to build the engine which your quench distance as close to .040 as possible. Bringing the pistons to zero deck and using a .039-.041 gasket is the best way to do it.

The HP difference won't be a lot difference, but the street friendly nature with available pump fuel is what your bigger concern seems to be so that is what you should do.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: JohnRR] #1279193
08/05/12 04:45 PM
08/05/12 04:45 PM
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Is there no way to combine flat pistons and quench in this stroker build? Machining the pistons? What costs to expect roughly





You can build the same quench with flattops and dished pistons. Thats why the dished pistons are still flat on half of the top as thats the part where it will make quench which is the same height as the flattops. Problem is on some with certain cc heads you may have to much comp for pump with the flattops. I know I was close to 12.0 with my Indy heads and flattops so I had to use the dished pistons to keep the quench at .045 and drop the comp some as I am at 10.6. Now if I would have used 84cc Eddy heads instead of 75cc Indy heads I may have gotten away with flattops as my comp would have been lower. With the Indy heads I believe you will need to use the dished piston and you can have quench with a lower pump gas friendly comp. I believe the flattop piston will have your comp to high for pump. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 08/05/12 04:48 PM.
Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: 383man] #1279194
08/05/12 05:31 PM
08/05/12 05:31 PM
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Thanks for advising guys.
Will deck to zero and use the dished version.
15grams additional weight per piston ...fine with me.
Using a 0.039 gasket will set CR at 11.19.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279195
08/05/12 05:45 PM
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That's a small cam for a 500 inch engine.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: RobX4406] #1279196
08/05/12 06:08 PM
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@Rob

hmmm,... do you have a suggestion what might fit better?
Please keep in mind that i've to avoid a rough idle...

regards

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279197
08/05/12 06:24 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

so what cam converter and gears?? also what is the intended use?




@dodgem,

compcams suggested a hydraulic cam for maintanance reasons.
They offered: Thumpr™, 283THR7
Car will be 4 speed with 3,54 gears
street use, maybe once/twice seeing the strip.
slightly rough idle accepted

question: Is there an hp-advantage zero-decking vs. -0.015 "in the hole" ?

Best,
smoke




well o deck with a .039 gasket gives .039 quench -.015 gives a quench of .054 not quite as good.

that is a mild cam definately go dish!

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279198
08/05/12 06:26 PM
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You want to avoid a rough idle? Did you tell the guys that when they suggested a tighter lobe separation angle cam.

Smoother idle, get something cut on a 110-112 lobe separation angle. Straight out of the catalog, I'd run a XR280HR-10 or the 286 before a thumper.

Since you look to want a roller, I'd call an engine builder that can order you a cam. Brian at IMM, member ou812, can order anything from the comp master catalog and get something that will work to your liking. Probably for the same or less money than a shelf cam.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: RobX4406] #1279199
08/05/12 06:38 PM
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@Rob

since i wanted a maintenance-friendly cam, they advice me
to go with a hydraulic flat tappet...
I told them : slightly rough idle accepted .....
so in the end they came up with the 287thumpr.

Ok, of course i'll not buy directly over the phone
without consulting the wise guys here


thanks

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279200
08/05/12 06:49 PM
08/05/12 06:49 PM
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The 283thr7 you posted above is the roller version. I still wouldn't run a thmpr.

IMO, you've got a serious mismatch of parts for intended use. MW port heads and a mild hyd flat cam, under .500 lift, no thanks.

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: RobX4406] #1279201
08/05/12 07:00 PM
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@Rob

you are absolutely right: missmatch.
I'll give them a call on monday to get a better suggestion.
regards

Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ? [Re: smoke] #1279202
08/05/12 07:03 PM
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IMO, you need a different head for what you desire. Std port window would serve you much better.

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