505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
#1279183
08/04/12 02:47 PM
08/04/12 02:47 PM
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smoke
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505cui - Stroker question:
I was reading that many people are happy with their 440source-stroker kits. I’ve two of these sets in the focus:
One with dished pistons and the flat version. Since I’m looking for the lighter one, the flat would be my first choice. Does anyone know how much more grams the dished version has? They do not have this data on their page. Secondly the alu heads I have are around 75cc. This will pump the cr to 12.3:1 with the flats. Which is a ‘lil too much for a street-friendly ride I think. I’d be more happy with cr around 11:1 to 11.5:1
Should I get the dished version with 10.9:1 or taking the flats including thicker (0.60 or 0.80) gaskets ? Or do I run with the thicker gaskets in other problems?
thanks
Last edited by smoke; 08/04/12 07:32 PM.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279186
08/04/12 10:21 PM
08/04/12 10:21 PM
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Cab_Burge
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Quote:
505cui - Stroker question:
I was reading that many people are happy with their 440source-stroker kits. I’ve two of these sets in the focus:
One with dished pistons and the flat version. Since I’m looking for the lighter one, the flat would be my first choice. Does anyone know how much more grams the dished version has? They do not have this data on their page. Secondly the alu heads I have are around 75cc. This will pump the cr to 12.3:1 with the flats. Which is a ‘lil too much for a street-friendly ride I think. I’d be more happy with cr around 11:1 to 11.5:1
Should I get the dished version with 10.9:1 or taking the flats including thicker (0.60 or 0.80) gaskets ? Or do I run with the thicker gaskets in other problems?
thanks
My 518 C.I. 400 stroker has a set of Ross custom 22 CC dish(complete dish, not reverse domes) that where originally set up at -.025 deck height with 84 CC open chamber iron heads and a Fel Pro .042 thick head gasket, that ended up making 9.25 to 1 comp. ratio. I switched heads two years later to a set of Eddy RPM(closed chambers) with 84.cc,I also switched the crankshaft from 4.25 stroke to 4.300 to make the motor a zero deck with Eddy RPM heads, I later switched those heads to a set of Indy SR with 75 CC chambers, ended up with 10.78 to 1 comp. with a .054 thick Cometic head gasket. It is barely pump gas friendly using Oregon non ethanol premium If I had to do it over I would start out with a reverse dome piston so I could get a decent quinch area in the top of the cylinders, not a complete dish piston
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1279187
08/05/12 05:39 AM
08/05/12 05:39 AM
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smoke
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Thanks for all of your input.
Yes the heads are indy 440 EZ opened to mw-size. They should have 75cc. But i'll check to be sure.
It seems that all of you are valueing the quench (this means going with heavier dished pistons) much higher than the weight advance of the flats (and using thicker gaskets). Is there no way to combine flat pistons and quench in this stroker build? Machining the pistons? What costs to expect roughly?
________________________________ regards
Last edited by smoke; 08/05/12 12:57 PM.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: Dodgem]
#1279190
08/05/12 11:40 AM
08/05/12 11:40 AM
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smoke
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Quote:
so what cam converter and gears?? also what is the intended use?
@dodgem,
compcams suggested a hydraulic cam for maintanance reasons. They offered: Thumpr™, 283THR7 Car will be 4 speed with 3,54 gears street use, maybe once/twice seeing the strip. slightly rough idle accepted
question: Is there an hp-advantage zero-decking vs. -0.015 "in the hole" ?
Best, smoke
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279191
08/05/12 11:57 AM
08/05/12 11:57 AM
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MR_P_BODY
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Quote:
Quote:
so what cam converter and gears?? also what is the intended use?
@dodgem,
compcams suggested a hydraulic cam for maintanance reasons. They offered: Thumpr™, 283THR7 Car will be 4 speed with 3,54 gears street use, maybe once/twice seeing the strip. slightly rough idle accepted
question: Is there an hp-advantage zero-decking vs. -0.015 "in the hole" ?
Best, smoke
Being a street car I would run the dish piston at 0 deck, .039 gasket... that'll give you the quench and your comp that you want... it would end up saving you money(if you go with Felpro gaskets)... then if you want(and probably should) you can advance the cam for better low end power... which closes the intake valve sooner on the piston stroke.... remember that the static compression is just a math number and the dynamic is when comp really starts so the CAM is the big part
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279192
08/05/12 03:48 PM
08/05/12 03:48 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Thanks for all of your input.
Yes the heads are indy 440 EZ opened to mw-size. They should have 75cc. But i'll check to be sure.
It seems that all of you are valueing the quench (this means going with heavier dished pistons) much higher than the weight advance of the flats (and using thicker gaskets). Is there no way to combine flat pistons and quench in this stroker build? Machining the pistons? What costs to expect roughly?
________________________________ regards
Doesn't the source use KB Icon forged pistons ? With a little searching on the internet I find the KB Icon flat top at 577g and the dish at 592g , hardly anything to worry about .
You want to build the engine which your quench distance as close to .040 as possible. Bringing the pistons to zero deck and using a .039-.041 gasket is the best way to do it.
The HP difference won't be a lot difference, but the street friendly nature with available pump fuel is what your bigger concern seems to be so that is what you should do.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1279193
08/05/12 04:45 PM
08/05/12 04:45 PM
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383man
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Is there no way to combine flat pistons and quench in this stroker build? Machining the pistons? What costs to expect roughly
You can build the same quench with flattops and dished pistons. Thats why the dished pistons are still flat on half of the top as thats the part where it will make quench which is the same height as the flattops. Problem is on some with certain cc heads you may have to much comp for pump with the flattops. I know I was close to 12.0 with my Indy heads and flattops so I had to use the dished pistons to keep the quench at .045 and drop the comp some as I am at 10.6. Now if I would have used 84cc Eddy heads instead of 75cc Indy heads I may have gotten away with flattops as my comp would have been lower. With the Indy heads I believe you will need to use the dished piston and you can have quench with a lower pump gas friendly comp. I believe the flattop piston will have your comp to high for pump. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 08/05/12 04:48 PM.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279197
08/05/12 06:24 PM
08/05/12 06:24 PM
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Dodgem
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Quote:
Quote:
so what cam converter and gears?? also what is the intended use?
@dodgem,
compcams suggested a hydraulic cam for maintanance reasons. They offered: Thumpr™, 283THR7 Car will be 4 speed with 3,54 gears street use, maybe once/twice seeing the strip. slightly rough idle accepted
question: Is there an hp-advantage zero-decking vs. -0.015 "in the hole" ?
Best, smoke
well o deck with a .039 gasket gives .039 quench -.015 gives a quench of .054 not quite as good.
that is a mild cam definately go dish!
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: RobX4406]
#1279199
08/05/12 06:38 PM
08/05/12 06:38 PM
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smoke
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@Rob since i wanted a maintenance-friendly cam, they advice me to go with a hydraulic flat tappet... I told them : slightly rough idle accepted ..... so in the end they came up with the 287thumpr. Ok, of course i'll not buy directly over the phone without consulting the wise guys here thanks
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279203
08/05/12 07:15 PM
08/05/12 07:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Cab_Burge
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/06/12 12:45 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1279205
08/05/12 07:57 PM
08/05/12 07:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Do not go to a full dish piston, if it will have no quench Been there, done that, my 512 Ross pistons have a 22 CC ful ldish, they weigh 456 grams without the wrist pins and rings I have bulit a few BB Mopar stroker motors over the years,a lot more stock stroke pump gas motors, more than I can remember accureatly now I have learned a few things along the way from past errors Do the math on what CC reverse dome it will take to make your intended compression ratio with all your other specs., IE deck hieght, combustion CC and so on and go from there
Cab the source piston should be a D dish
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1279206
08/05/12 08:17 PM
08/05/12 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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440Jim
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Double check the exact part number you are ordering, but this is a picture from the 440Source web site of their dish pistons. Good "D" shape with some quench area. You can even machine some off the top (0.00-0.030?) to reduce the dish to customize your compression ratio (decking the block to match). But I think the 11 CR you mentioned is enough.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279210
08/06/12 12:29 AM
08/06/12 12:29 AM
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RobX4406
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Quote:
Rob,
i know what you mean, but it can be done and maybe our taste regarding rough idle differs That's what i call a slightly rough idle, and this ride even has a 12:1 cr. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN9uEzqzdA0
My idea of a mild idle is like most peoples idea of rough. That cam they gave you as a recommendation is a puppy dog in a 505.
If that video is acceptable, I bet that Hyd Roller in that video is in at least the 250 at .050 range which is more along what I would run in a street car. Many people would think that's a rough idle or not street friendly so when you say "mild" you get what comp recommended. Ask Streetwize who posted in here, I believe it's his engine build.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: RobX4406]
#1279211
08/06/12 12:49 AM
08/06/12 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
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Dont know if you can get a good idea of my 493's idle in this vid. Its a solid flat tappet speced by Dwayne Porter and I love it. It has 264 & 270 @ .050 with a lift about .592. With my 1.6 rockers its about .630 lift and its a 110 LSA. I have it in the eng on a 106 centerline. Dwayne is very good as you could call him and talk to him. Let me know if you would want his phone #. I usually pick my own cams but I went with Dwayne because I wanted a cam speced for this eng and I know he could spec a better cam then me. Ron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYIM2HLaOI4&feature=related
Last edited by 383man; 08/06/12 12:50 AM.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: smoke]
#1279213
08/06/12 08:23 AM
08/06/12 08:23 AM
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Quote:
@Rob
you are absolutely right: missmatch. I'll give them a call on monday to get a better suggestion. regards
Honestly, I would recommend not calling Comp Cam. You will only get a different answer. What confidence will you have in the second answer? The fact that they recommended what they did the first time should be evidence enough to not go back. Call a Comp Cam distributor that has committed himself to the sport. I have used and recommend Dwayne Porter, but there are several good choices, just ask on this board. The additional advice/information that you will get from a guy like Dwayne is priceless.
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Re: 505cui stroker - dished or flat ?
[Re: Streetwize]
#1279216
08/06/12 11:50 AM
08/06/12 11:50 AM
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Twostick
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Quote:
This is an agressive bullet Hydraulic roller 264/268@.050 on 108's in my 517....very similar specs to Ron's flat tappet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8GeXYYkKU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I agree that The stroker can sound as nasty as the same cam in a 440, the difference is the off idle drivabilty and roll on power will be much better, kind of the best if both worlds.
The only reason I installed a 2800 stall converter on mine was to cushion the drivetrain from the 1100 rpm idle. It drove away just fine with the stock converter and 2.76 gears.
Ain't displacement grand?
Kevin
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