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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: Devil]
#1266824
07/13/12 11:12 PM
07/13/12 11:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,324
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,324
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Enjoy, I'm out!
Ryan
Good because you seem to have an axe to grind with RMS ...
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: JohnRR]
#1266825
07/14/12 07:29 AM
07/14/12 07:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
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Quote:
The big difference...Cost Hotchkis complete front and rear is like 2500.00 plus a good box from firm feel...another 500 or so.
The RMS...4500 for the front and another 2500 or so for the back,
$2500? their site says $3300 and you still need torsion bars. so add another $397 to that price and your up to $3600, your $500 steering box puts you over $4000 and don't forget an idler arm and pitman arm along with lower ball joints and lower control arm bushings.i'm sure you don't want to do all that other work and leave a few old worn componets. how are those brake hoses? going to add larger brakes??
http://www.hotchkis.net/7074_dodge_challenger_tvs_system.html
the street lynx is under $2000 at $1995. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16174&cat=263&page=1
the big difference between the two and why the alter-k is more is because with the alter-k you get a complete system. your getting a k-frame,spindles,brake lines,a complete dront brake system (price will go up or down depending what you want),upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, a rack, wheel bearings and all hardware.....etc..etc...etc.. so if you really break it all down and compare what you get for your money the alter-k is a better deal, hell its a bargain. and the Hotchkis sounds quite over priced.
i do really like how you priced all the rms stuff high and under priced the hotchkis stuff to make your argument. nice try. 
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: JohnRR]
#1266826
07/14/12 07:31 AM
07/14/12 07:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
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Quote:
Quote:
Enjoy, I'm out!
Ryan
Good because you seem to have an axe to grind with RMS ...
all you'll here from him is regurgitated ehrenberg BS. the next time he has an original thought will be the first time. he proves it on pretty much a daily basis.
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: cogen80]
#1266827
07/14/12 08:33 AM
07/14/12 08:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
Chally426
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
The big difference...Cost Hotchkis complete front and rear is like 2500.00 plus a good box from firm feel...another 500 or so.
The RMS...4500 for the front and another 2500 or so for the back,
$2500? their site says $3300 and you still need torsion bars. so add another $397 to that price and your up to $3600, your $500 steering box puts you over $4000 and don't forget an idler arm and pitman arm along with lower ball joints and lower control arm bushings.i'm sure you don't want to do all that other work and leave a few old worn componets. how are those brake hoses? going to add larger brakes??
http://www.hotchkis.net/7074_dodge_challenger_tvs_system.html
the street lynx is under $2000 at $1995. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16174&cat=263&page=1
the big difference between the two and why the alter-k is more is because with the alter-k you get a complete system. your getting a k-frame,spindles,brake lines,a complete dront brake system (price will go up or down depending what you want),upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, a rack, wheel bearings and all hardware.....etc..etc...etc.. so if you really break it all down and compare what you get for your money the alter-k is a better deal, hell its a bargain. and the Hotchkis sounds quite over priced.
i do really like how you priced all the rms stuff high and under priced the hotchkis stuff to make your argument. nice try.
The pricing I got was from RMS and Hotchkis at Carlisle....The Hotchkis was for both front AND rear...I was quoted over 7000.00 for the Basic RMS stuff
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: Chally426]
#1266828
07/14/12 10:13 AM
07/14/12 10:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The big difference...Cost Hotchkis complete front and rear is like 2500.00 plus a good box from firm feel...another 500 or so.
The RMS...4500 for the front and another 2500 or so for the back,
$2500? their site says $3300 and you still need torsion bars. so add another $397 to that price and your up to $3600, your $500 steering box puts you over $4000 and don't forget an idler arm and pitman arm along with lower ball joints and lower control arm bushings.i'm sure you don't want to do all that other work and leave a few old worn componets. how are those brake hoses? going to add larger brakes??
http://www.hotchkis.net/7074_dodge_challenger_tvs_system.html
the street lynx is under $2000 at $1995. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16174&cat=263&page=1
the big difference between the two and why the alter-k is more is because with the alter-k you get a complete system. your getting a k-frame,spindles,brake lines,a complete dront brake system (price will go up or down depending what you want),upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, a rack, wheel bearings and all hardware.....etc..etc...etc.. so if you really break it all down and compare what you get for your money the alter-k is a better deal, hell its a bargain. and the Hotchkis sounds quite over priced.
i do really like how you priced all the rms stuff high and under priced the hotchkis stuff to make your argument. nice try.
The pricing I got was from RMS and Hotchkis at Carlisle....The Hotchkis was for both front AND rear...I was quoted over 7000.00 for the Basic RMS stuff
can look at both web sites and see the prices. nuff said.
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: cogen80]
#1266829
07/14/12 10:54 PM
07/14/12 10:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
Chally426
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The big difference...Cost Hotchkis complete front and rear is like 2500.00 plus a good box from firm feel...another 500 or so.
The RMS...4500 for the front and another 2500 or so for the back,
$2500? their site says $3300 and you still need torsion bars. so add another $397 to that price and your up to $3600, your $500 steering box puts you over $4000 and don't forget an idler arm and pitman arm along with lower ball joints and lower control arm bushings.i'm sure you don't want to do all that other work and leave a few old worn componets. how are those brake hoses? going to add larger brakes??
http://www.hotchkis.net/7074_dodge_challenger_tvs_system.html
the street lynx is under $2000 at $1995. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16174&cat=263&page=1
the big difference between the two and why the alter-k is more is because with the alter-k you get a complete system. your getting a k-frame,spindles,brake lines,a complete dront brake system (price will go up or down depending what you want),upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, a rack, wheel bearings and all hardware.....etc..etc...etc.. so if you really break it all down and compare what you get for your money the alter-k is a better deal, hell its a bargain. and the Hotchkis sounds quite over priced.
i do really like how you priced all the rms stuff high and under priced the hotchkis stuff to make your argument. nice try.
The pricing I got was from RMS and Hotchkis at Carlisle....The Hotchkis was for both front AND rear...I was quoted over 7000.00 for the Basic RMS stuff
can look at both web sites and see the prices. nuff said.
Their web site says 3300.00, Here is an ebay add for 3000.00 and they quoted me a show special price of 2500.00
Still dont understand what ever point your TRYING to make... 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/70-74-Barracuda-...9a5&vxp=mtr
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: Chally426]
#1266831
07/15/12 07:57 AM
07/15/12 07:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,324
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,324
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The big difference...Cost Hotchkis complete front and rear is like 2500.00 plus a good box from firm feel...another 500 or so.
The RMS...4500 for the front and another 2500 or so for the back,
$2500? their site says $3300 and you still need torsion bars. so add another $397 to that price and your up to $3600, your $500 steering box puts you over $4000 and don't forget an idler arm and pitman arm along with lower ball joints and lower control arm bushings.i'm sure you don't want to do all that other work and leave a few old worn componets. how are those brake hoses? going to add larger brakes??
http://www.hotchkis.net/7074_dodge_challenger_tvs_system.html
the street lynx is under $2000 at $1995. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16174&cat=263&page=1
the big difference between the two and why the alter-k is more is because with the alter-k you get a complete system. your getting a k-frame,spindles,brake lines,a complete dront brake system (price will go up or down depending what you want),upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, a rack, wheel bearings and all hardware.....etc..etc...etc.. so if you really break it all down and compare what you get for your money the alter-k is a better deal, hell its a bargain. and the Hotchkis sounds quite over priced.
i do really like how you priced all the rms stuff high and under priced the hotchkis stuff to make your argument. nice try.
The pricing I got was from RMS and Hotchkis at Carlisle....The Hotchkis was for both front AND rear...I was quoted over 7000.00 for the Basic RMS stuff
can look at both web sites and see the prices. nuff said.
Their web site says 3300.00, Here is an ebay add for 3000.00 and they quoted me a show special price of 2500.00
Still dont understand what ever point your TRYING to make...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/70-74-Barracuda-...9a5&vxp=mtr
Was the RMS price you got at the show a SHOW SPECIAL ??? If not then it's an apples to oranges comparison. Not everyone is going to wait and follow the companies around the country or buy on a whim to get the SHOW SPECIAL ...
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: JohnRR]
#1266832
07/15/12 09:27 AM
07/15/12 09:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
Chally426
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The big difference...Cost Hotchkis complete front and rear is like 2500.00 plus a good box from firm feel...another 500 or so.
The RMS...4500 for the front and another 2500 or so for the back,
$2500? their site says $3300 and you still need torsion bars. so add another $397 to that price and your up to $3600, your $500 steering box puts you over $4000 and don't forget an idler arm and pitman arm along with lower ball joints and lower control arm bushings.i'm sure you don't want to do all that other work and leave a few old worn componets. how are those brake hoses? going to add larger brakes??
http://www.hotchkis.net/7074_dodge_challenger_tvs_system.html
the street lynx is under $2000 at $1995. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16174&cat=263&page=1
the big difference between the two and why the alter-k is more is because with the alter-k you get a complete system. your getting a k-frame,spindles,brake lines,a complete dront brake system (price will go up or down depending what you want),upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, a rack, wheel bearings and all hardware.....etc..etc...etc.. so if you really break it all down and compare what you get for your money the alter-k is a better deal, hell its a bargain. and the Hotchkis sounds quite over priced.
i do really like how you priced all the rms stuff high and under priced the hotchkis stuff to make your argument. nice try.
The pricing I got was from RMS and Hotchkis at Carlisle....The Hotchkis was for both front AND rear...I was quoted over 7000.00 for the Basic RMS stuff
can look at both web sites and see the prices. nuff said.
Their web site says 3300.00, Here is an ebay add for 3000.00 and they quoted me a show special price of 2500.00
Still dont understand what ever point your TRYING to make...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/70-74-Barracuda-...9a5&vxp=mtr
Was the RMS price you got at the show a SHOW SPECIAL ??? If not then it's an apples to oranges comparison. Not everyone is going to wait and follow the companies around the country or buy on a whim to get the SHOW SPECIAL ...
I understand...And even though it seems were arguing, you both have brought up good points...My beginning problem with the RMS was cost, 6 - 7000 is a lot of money (and you still need to stiffin the body) especially after riding in the Hotckis challenger and thinking you could get that for half the cost of the RMS.
But, as Cogen80 has pointed out, there are some more cost involved with the Hotchis set up, actually, With the Hotckis I think there is even one more thing I would add, A new braced K member which is also not needed with the RMS set up. I guess I need to just make a list and start pricing parts and see where it lands
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: Chally426]
#1266834
07/15/12 12:53 PM
07/15/12 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,257
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,257
Oregon
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It all depends what you're trying to accomplish. There is a lot of information available on the subject if you dig a little. Start with the tech articles on my website. www.arengineering.comTim and I have spent a lot of time with his '68 Valiant. It runs a stock style suspension but has had a ton of tweaks to it. That car works pretty well and it would be fairly simple to duplicate. I also covered the topic in my B-body book. E body and A body cars are similiar enough to the B-body cars that the information translates okay.
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: Vert]
#1266836
07/16/12 03:30 PM
07/16/12 03:30 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but a quick search on Amazon netted this: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=hotchkis+mopar+TVSThat said, there are various improvements that can be made over our kit, but as far as bang for the buck, there isn't a better deals on quality, made in the USA components out there. Our list price on the Hotchkis site is to ensure that we do not undercut our vendors, but that doesn't stop us from offering show specials at events we go to as well as extending HUGE discounts to our military members and dependents. That taken into consideration, our parts are also capable of being done piece by piece as the stock components wear out, which many customers like to do. That coupled with the ability to use your stock brakes, wheels and other components, has made our entry into the Mopar suspension market a formidable kit, with numerous victories at autocross, HPDE, and hill climbs around the country.
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: moparmikethree]
#1266837
07/17/12 08:50 PM
07/17/12 08:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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My 2¢...as published in Mopar Action:
I have found a couple consecutive negative remarks about RMS products published in recent issues of Mopar Action and I am seeking to understand why. This came as a surprise to me because I can find no negative data on any RMS product no matter where I look. Many builds, including my own, that are pursuing handling related performance upgrades often include RMS. A much smaller percentage use XV (due to cost and mods) and even less Magnum Force. Bill at RMS really seems to have his heart dedicated to building quality products capable of improving street and road race performance with more than 10 years of product application to support it. If you have experience with RMS quality problems, or data to support the “questionable” status, please share it with us enthusiasts seeking to get our Mopars onto the tracks. This way we can make the necessary improvements, mods etc. to appropriately benefit from these kinds of upgrades. There should not be fear, uncertainty and doubt between fellow enthusiasts. I understand how the RMS system distributes cornering forces on our car’s infrastructure differently from the T‑bar but is there data of failures resulting from this? I can’t find a single case of failure of any kind. If you know of any please share and help us understand what is “questionable” about these products. Maybe together we can make the perfect solution.
My ’71 Challenger is using XV in the rear and RMS in front with all XV bracing products including rad support, inner fender bracing and connectors.
Thank you for your help and expertise.
—Daniel Niclas, San Jose, CA
Dan—
On a drag car, the RMS AlterKtion stuff is great—takes out lots of weight, makes more exhaust room. But there’s a laundry list of potential problems with using this on the street and/or road course. In no particular order...
> Heim joints—anybody’s heim joints—just do not last on the street. Even with added boots, they still don’t come anywhere close to OEM tie rod end durability. And, as an artifact of their construction, they are much more prone to total failure than an OEM tie rod end.
> The cantilevered outer tie rod end, spaced up with a stack of shims and spacers (for bumpsteer correction, no doubt out of necessity, because the rack could not be installed correctly due to interference, and a “generic” steering arm is used), is a scary potential catastrophic failure point. The loads on that bolt, should you be in a hard corner and hit a pothole, are astronomical. Some photos I have seen show the spacer tube welded to the steering arm, which may offer partial mitigation.
> The suspension (spring) loads are now taken by the front rails. They were, in the OEM Chrysler design, primarily, imparted to the torsion bar crossmember. On a drag car, where you’ll have a roll cage tube passing thru the firewall and tied into the top of what was the shock tower, the problem is pretty well mitigated. But on a street car, where you seldom see that, you’ll be inducing lots more chassis flex. Just hook up a small video camera and watch how the steering shaft telescopes over bumps. The Chrysler OEM system had a lightweight front structure with springs (T-bars) mounted low and rearward, damn near “Formula One” technology. Why give that up?
> The K-member is no longer a “K”, drastically reducing its ability to prevent the front rails from “parallelograming”. This would significantly reduce crashworthiness (especially in an offset frontal crash) as well as reducing overall chassis rigidity.
> I believe that the spindle diameter is smaller than stock. In 1973, Chrysler increased the spindle diameter as weight, tire size, wheel width, etc., were all increasing.
> The frame thru-bolts will crush the frame as the bolts are tightened. There should be tubes welded into the frame, EG: stock transmission crossmember, etc.
> Every pix I have seen shows brake hubs that have no way to pilot the wheel. ESPECIALLY road racing, hub‑centricity is paramount.
> There’s near-zero compliance—nothing to replace the OEM tension-strut bushing. Instantaneous impact loads are sky-high, exacerbating the above negatives. And the effective footprint of the LCA, which, in the OEM design, included that tension strut, is greatly reduced (nearly 50%) in the RMS design, further reducing its ability to safely handle impacts.
> The steering column’s pot coupling is eliminated. The pot coupling is what compensates for chassis flex; deleting it means that one of two things will occur over time/abuse: Either the nylon shear pin on ’67-up non-E-bodies will break, or the upper column bearing will fail (possible on any Mopar).
> You’ll note that there is not one weld in the factory suspension components. By design. That’s not to necessarily say that welds are always bad, but, if they can be avoided, you’ve eliminated one area where, unless each weld is X-rayed, you just don’t know what to expect over the long term.
Mr. Reilly has always thought I’ve had it in for him. That’s simply not true, I think he has designed a very good drag-race suspension conversion. It’s just when you take a drag race front end, sell it for street use, with nothing even close to factory durability and stress testing, that I worry. Lack of reported or known failures isn’t proof of anything: Space shuttles made many flights “before,” the Silver Bridge carried tens of millions of cars safely, then one day it simply vanished into the Ohio River, killing hundreds, to cite just two well-known examples. When a fleet of test cars have spent 250,000 miles each being hammered at a PG, then get back to me. This applies to the competitor’s products as well. If I didn’t point these things out, I’d be complacent. Reilly, in fact, does point this out, go read the disclaimer that is in the RMS documentation:
“....By purchasing this product, the buyer/end user assumes all risks associated with its use and agrees to having the proper skills for it’s [sic] installation. Reilly MotorSports Inc. and its suppliers will not be held responsible, liable or accountable for any injury, damage, loss, penalties, or fines that occur from using this product in any manner.”
For my dime, upgrades to the basic T-bar system are the way to go. Firm Feel, XV’s level one, and even Hotchkis have parts and packages that get the job done, although Hotchkis’ swapping (giving up) brake anti-dive* for more camber gain doesn’t thrill me either. If you’re building a straight-line-only drag car, your opinion may vary.
Guys often confuse “race” parts with “durability.” Often the opposite is true. EG: Aluminum con rods and rocker arms, “race” axle shafts and gears, tiny radiators and fans, super high-lift cams, and many more. A lot of guys, of course, do get by with race parts on the street. How? Simple: The car sees 10 cruise-ins or 300 miles a year, smooth roads, 40 MPH, etc.
If I don’t take care to see that there’s some kind of disclaimer in articles featuring cars with these suspension conversions, we could be seen (legally) as endorsing them—which we are not.
To boil this down: Again, I’m sure the RMS setup has good geometry (even has anti-dive) and drives just fine. On a drag car, the extra header and oil pan real estate, and reduced weight, would be the hot ticket. It is the specter of sudden, catastrophic failure in “real street” use that worries me.
*—See p. 35 for more on this. {Aug 201 issue}
Rick
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: torqueaddict]
#1266840
07/18/12 01:17 PM
07/18/12 01:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
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Quote:
How "in the know" is Rick from mopar action anyway guys?
Kust like everyone else - he is entitled to his OPINION.
I've posted plenty of road racers with no issues - Former Mopar Performance head Jon Clarke just finished competing in a road course for PHR with the RMS unit -and has nothing but praise for it...
I'd take the word of the people who put the cash down for it to give an opinion - afterall they are the ones who can speak to it - they drive it.
anyone who has not installed / driven one has OPINIONS - and no hard facts to speak either way.
and as far as the warranty is concerned - even a holley HP carb is listed for off road use only!!
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: cogen80]
#1266841
07/18/12 07:00 PM
07/18/12 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
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I actually made a spread sheet over the winter comparing TVS vs RMS. You are right it's hard to compare the two because RMS is more complete than the base TVS. RMS front and rear, about $6300.00
Base TVS w/new rear shackles from Summit (2559), then go over to firmfeel for shocks (400), 1.06 Tbars (325) , bigger tierod sleeves (225), sector support kit (135),stage whatever box (330), fast ratio idler and pitman (285).. still under 4300.
As Dan said, the hotchkis website prices are what they are. Much better prices can be found at Summit or Amazon. I was able to pick up the TVS rear springs for my charger for $385 with free shipping from amazon in May 2012
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Re: converting 70 Challenger to a rack and pinnion
[Re: Pool Fixer]
#1266842
07/19/12 12:18 PM
07/19/12 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
Base TVS w/new rear shackles from Summit (2559), then go over to firmfeel for shocks (400), 1.06 Tbars (325) , bigger tierod sleeves (225), sector support kit (135),stage whatever box (330), fast ratio idler and pitman (285).. still under 4300.
This also has the benefit that you don't shell out all the $$ at once. You can build the system over time. That can't be done with Alterk. i think Dan pointed that out too.
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