Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Brake Bias and matching parts #1229776
05/08/12 08:51 PM
05/08/12 08:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
P
PHJ426 Offline OP
master
PHJ426  Offline OP
master
P

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
Okay so I am learning and using Andy's B body book for reference.

My application: 72 B body was factory PDB car. Still is but with 73 A body front brakes currently.

Going to First Generation Viper front calipers. Only waiting on pads and bolts from Dodge to hang the calipers.

Per Andy's book So factory front disc pistons are 2.750 " Area is 5.94 square inches

Per Andy's book Viper caliper is 2,520 square mm = 3.91 square inches.

So the area is now 66% of what the area use to be so a decrease of 34% of caliper area.

Currently there are 11 x 2 1/2" drums in the rear of the car. I purchased some 7/8" wheel cylinders to use out back. I see in Andy's book there is no good way to calculate the area of the drum brakes.

Since there are 15/16" wheel cylinders currently and will be replacing them with 7/8" wheel cylinders to reduce the rear bias. This is a decrease of around 7% of area with this wheel cylinder change.

The Power Brake booster and factory master cylinder are going to be replaced with a new 7/8" bore master cylinder in manual mode.

I have 2 questions.

1. How to install the adjustable pushrod for the master cylinder? Any pointers here.

2. Should I plan on an adjustable prop. valve or just see how it works with the factory prop valve?

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: PHJ426] #1229777
05/08/12 10:24 PM
05/08/12 10:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
master
72Swinger  Offline
master

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
I would definitely try it first before buying and plumbing the adjuster. You might be pleasantly surprised.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: 72Swinger] #1229778
05/09/12 01:26 AM
05/09/12 01:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
My understanding of the adjustable pushrod is that it should mimic the length and travel of the stock unit.
MOST of the aftermarket Master Cylinders are 2 bolt, while our cars use a 4 bolt arrangement. The 4 to 2 adapter makes up for that, but since it moves the master cyl AWAY from the firewall, the brake pushrod needs to be longer. I would think that if a person buys an adapter, the pushrod should just need to be longer by the thickness of the adapter.
Last month, I monkeyed around for 2 weeks with different parts when I decided to convert my Charger BACK to a non power brake setup. OH what a pain in my rump... WOULD it REALLY have been that much trouble for the factory to put STUDS in the brake pedal cage? Laying upside down under the dash to tighten or loosen nuts in hard to reach areas....AAAHHhhhhh!
Back to the adjustable pushrod: I would expect that it should be long enough to allow the pedal to turn OFF the brake light switch and to reach the end of the travel of the piston inside the master cylinder.

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: Kern Dog] #1229779
05/09/12 02:11 AM
05/09/12 02:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,115
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,115
Oregon
The pushrod doesn't need to be longer when using the MC adapter that I make. The MC adapter is designed the correct thickness to match up the new aluminum master cylinder with the original pushrod.

At least it works that way on a manual brake car. If you're also changing from power to manual at the same time then you'll most likely need to buy a manual brake pushrod.

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: 72Swinger] #1229780
05/09/12 02:14 AM
05/09/12 02:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,115
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,115
Oregon
Quote:

I would definitely try it first before buying and plumbing the adjuster. You might be pleasantly surprised.




Yes, that could very well be true. Brake bias is pretty complicated to figure out on a disc/drum car. It is probably easier to just try it and see how it works and then adjust from there. Brake pad compound is another variable that can be tweaked. Ride height, weight distribution, tire size, etc. also play a part.

If you never drive the car in the rain then you can get away with a lot more rear bias. If you do drive the car in the rain then you have to set it up for heavy front bias so you don't spin the car during a panic stop in the rain. But setting the car up that way kills a bunch of the stopping distance since the rear brakes are just along for the ride on dry pavement.

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: AndyF] #1229781
05/09/12 02:25 AM
05/09/12 02:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
astjp2 Offline
master
astjp2  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
Find a dirt road and lock them up, see which ones lock first. Under controlled conditions, it will be close to a wet asphalt. Tim

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: astjp2] #1229782
05/09/12 02:45 AM
05/09/12 02:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Dirt road?
I guess this is decent advice for those withOUT expensive paint jobs!

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: Kern Dog] #1229783
05/09/12 05:21 AM
05/09/12 05:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
astjp2 Offline
master
astjp2  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
I only have 12k invested in my paint job and its not finished yet, I have drivers and come from areas that have dirt roads so I use what is available. A paved road with a light dusting of sand will do the same thing. Tim

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: astjp2] #1229784
05/09/12 05:44 AM
05/09/12 05:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Hey... I was just messin around. I used the decomposed granite in front of my shop to test brake action with THIS car.....

7198240-494.JPG (32 downloads)
Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: 72Swinger] #1229785
05/09/12 08:51 AM
05/09/12 08:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70 Offline
super stock
brads70  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
I plumbed in a wilwood adjuster and it's wide open, never had to use it.
Viper calipers, bigger truck wheel cylinders...

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: brads70] #1229786
05/09/12 09:05 AM
05/09/12 09:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
P
PHJ426 Offline OP
master
PHJ426  Offline OP
master
P

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
Thanks for the info. Currently the 11x 2.5 drums have shoes from Firm Feel. So maybe going to the 7/8 wheel cylinder and a less aggressive shoe will be enough to knock down some of the rear bias.

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: PHJ426] #1229787
05/09/12 09:16 PM
05/09/12 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
A
ahy Offline
master
ahy  Offline
master
A

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
I run front discs (13" PBR) and rear drums. In my setup I needed the prop valve to correct excessive rear bias. I was glad I went ahead and installed it from the start. I am using its full adjustment. I'd like to get 7/8" wheel cylinders so I can back off on valve adjustment. 7/8" cylinders for 11" drums seem hard to find at the AP store. I'd order a set from Rick but I have never been able to get Paypal to work so I get along with the adjustable valve.

Re: Brake Bias and matching parts [Re: PHJ426] #1229788
05/10/12 12:34 AM
05/10/12 12:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
R
Rick_Ehrenberg Offline
top fuel
Rick_Ehrenberg  Offline
top fuel
R

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Briefly....

> Getting the proportioning spot-on is a real key to reducing stopping distances. All the OEM stuff, '60s/'70s, was a huge compromise.

> Having said that....front disc/rear drum is a moving target. The Duo-Servo brakes (rear drums) are SO non-linear, its crazy.

> Having said that, you can still make a huge improvement over stock with an adjustable valve. Remember: the fronts should always lock first! (Fronts locked = no steering, but car can go straight. Rears locked = SURE spin!)

Rick







Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1