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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1169951
02/05/12 06:30 PM
02/05/12 06:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
I should have thought of this sooner; should I be using a zinc additive in my stock 1980 E58 Aspen?
Thanks.
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
While the oil is better in MOST aspects, its NOT better at lubricating the extremely small contact patch between a cam lobe and its lifter face. Zinc/Phosphorus is/was added to aid in this task.
Problem---modern engines have Catalytic converters, Zinc/PH deposits attack and destroy the reactive metals in a cat that are required in order for it to function. BUT----modern engines are roller cammed and do not require the Zinc/PH, so the EPA drastically reduced the Zinc/PH in oils so that cats will live longer.
Hydraulic or solid has nothing to do with it. Spring rates and lift does.
True a smogger 360 needs little zinc to live, but its still a concern.
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: moparcanuk]
#1169955
02/05/12 11:12 PM
02/05/12 11:12 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,724
Florida
BDW
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,724
Florida
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Quote:
Brad Penn has the correct amount of zinc and is cheaper than using an additive.
Not even close, Lucas $15, 3 servings per container, so it works out to $5/oil extra per change.
Try to find Brad Penn for less than $7/qt not including shipping.
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1169956
02/05/12 11:17 PM
02/05/12 11:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I should have thought of this sooner; should I be using a zinc additive in my stock 1980 E58 Aspen?
Thanks.
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
While the oil is better in MOST aspects, its NOT better at lubricating the extremely small contact patch between a cam lobe and its lifter face. Zinc/Phosphorus is/was added to aid in this task.
Problem---modern engines have Catalytic converters, Zinc/PH deposits attack and destroy the reactive metals in a cat that are required in order for it to function. BUT----modern engines are roller cammed and do not require the Zinc/PH, so the EPA drastically reduced the Zinc/PH in oils so that cats will live longer.
Hydraulic or solid has nothing to do with it. Spring rates and lift does.
True a smogger 360 needs little zinc to live, but its still a concern.
This is something that always crosses my mind: the zinc ruins the cats so they took it out, but if the rings are in good shape, there should be hardly any zinc getting to the cat. And the zinc makes the rings last longer too. So we took the zinc out of the oil to save the cats and make the rings wear out faster? Just doesn't make much sense to me.
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: BDW]
#1169957
02/05/12 11:51 PM
02/05/12 11:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,522
Orleans, Ontario
moparcanuk
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,522
Orleans, Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
Brad Penn has the correct amount of zinc and is cheaper than using an additive.
Not even close, Lucas $15, 3 servings per container, so it works out to $5/oil extra per change.
Try to find Brad Penn for less than $7/qt not including shipping.
I get it for $6 a quart at a local Penn dealer here in the Great White North. Should be cheaper in the US.
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1169959
02/06/12 03:44 PM
02/06/12 03:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Quote:
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
While the oil is better in MOST aspects, its NOT better at lubricating the extremely small contact patch between a cam lobe and its lifter face. Zinc/Phosphorus is/was added to aid in this task.
Problem---modern engines have Catalytic converters, Zinc/PH deposits attack and destroy the reactive metals in a cat that are required in order for it to function. BUT----modern engines are roller cammed and do not require the Zinc/PH, so the EPA drastically reduced the Zinc/PH in oils so that cats will live longer.
Hydraulic or solid has nothing to do with it. Spring rates and lift does.
True a smogger 360 needs little zinc to live, but its still a concern.
Zinc Tunnel Vision...
Both the above quotes have elements of truth to them. Yes, zinc content in motor oil is of high importance with respect to flat tappet camshafts. However, there are other important aspects to motor oil quality that is worth a look as well. Such aspects include: Foaming Tendency, Volatility, Depositing, Seal Compatibility, Shear Resistance, and Sludge Control to name a few factors that contribute to a comprehensive motor oil package.
Being focused on zinc content alone may limit us from having a true performer in our motor oil. While an API (SG) rated motor oil from 1993 has the higher level of zinc we’re after, it also lacks in all the other qualities mentioned above.
If we can combine modern motor oil base stocks and a modern additive package with pre-2004 zinc levels; now we have the best of both worlds.
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1169961
02/06/12 07:05 PM
02/06/12 07:05 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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Quote:
SO what your telling me is that in a normal street driven engine, a engine with say Amsoil outlast an engine with the cheapest wallmart brand oil? For things such as rings/bearings/cyl.walls/etc. Not arguing, I'm just curious if this is correct.
nothing last forever,run the [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] out of it,when it blows build another one.
lifs to short to worry about the small stuff,rather drive my mopars even if it means they wear out.
Larry may never have trouble in the High milage cop engine but then again it could very well wipe a cam lobe some day due to low ZDDP
snake oil,its been around for a long long time,if your not impressed yet,tell me what you want to hear.. 
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: CompSyn]
#1169962
02/06/12 08:34 PM
02/06/12 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
Rug_Trucker
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
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All I know is I was looking for some 10-30 diesel oil. The only thing Walmart sells is a synthetic blend. I emailed them about the percentage of synthetic........never got a reply.
I have been running it in my '93 Corolla that has 161K on it. I just bought it 9000mi ago. The original owner used to substitute a quart of oil with Duralube according to the documentation that came with it.
I have been using 15-40 Valvoline in the Cummins.
Roller cam engines don't need as much zinc? OHC's? No idea.
"The only thing to do for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
"NUNQUAM NON PARATUS!"
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Re: Do I need zinc additive?
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1169963
02/06/12 09:54 PM
02/06/12 09:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
SO what your telling me is that in a normal street driven engine, a engine with say Amsoil outlast an engine with the cheapest wallmart brand oil? For things such as rings/bearings/cyl.walls/etc. Not arguing, I'm just curious if this is correct.
No! I'm not talking about the comparison of brands. I'm talking about the quality of differing American Petroleum Institute (API) service categories.
For example, category SN supersedes category SM. Category SM supersedes category SL. Category SL supersedes SJ... So on and so fourth.
SM was introduced in 2004 with reduced zinc and phosphorous levels. And even though SM was actually a better overall performing motor oil than all prior categories, it just had reduced anti-wear properties that flat-tappet camshafts in older high performance engines thrive on.
And that's what I'm taking about, when you can find a modern motor oil formulation with increased levels of zinc and phosphorous levels, it's a win-win.
What we don't want to do is find an old stash of SH or SG category motor oil thinking it's somehow better, it's not. First, motor oil has a three-to-five year shelf life; it degrades sitting on the shelf. And again, these older oils made under older service categories utilized inferior base oils and additives when compared to the ones utilized today.
The other thing we don't want to do is believe that zinc is the only and final say as to the overall performance of a motor oil, it's not. I've already noted many other attributes that makes a good comprehensive motor oil package. It's also a largely unregulated market. Someone can take cheap base oils and additives, throw in a bunch of zinc and market it as a muscle car motor oil. That doesn't make for a good oil. It makes for an under par oil with gobs of zinc, nothing more, nothing less.
Just a few things to take into consideration.
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but as I said, for his stock E58, its nothing to be worried about. Just maintain regular maitnence. But if it makes him fell better, go for it.
