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Here's rear mounted pin calipers with braided banjo line. The line is just routed in U shaped down from the banjo fitting and upward to the body fitting.

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The arrangement shown doesn't have the hose crossing the steering axis. This causes lots more twisting in the hose and mandates a very, very careful and thorough check for abrasion and "going taut" lock-to-lock, full jounce to full rebound, all combinations thereof. If the calipers must be rear hung for some reason, you are way better off moving the hardline and frame brackets to the front.

His original post led me to believe that he had pin-type calipers and they were front hung (he said LCA interference). Now he says he will move them to the front...so who knows?

Using the taller late-B knuckles may improve the camber pattern a small amount but definitely TRIPLES the bumpsteer!

Rick

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So Rick which is it, the Chrysler engineers are brilliant or are they idiots?

In your articles of disc brake conversions you expound the virtues of the Chrysler engineers when it comes to the use of the taller knuckles on earlier models yet you chastise them because of the way they mounted the calipers?

You seem to forget you are dealing with Mopar owners that because the shading of reproduction hardware is off by one or 2 shades, do you really think they are going to move the brake line attachmant point and bend up their own lines ?

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Using the taller late-B knuckles may improve the camber pattern a small amount but definitely TRIPLES the bumpsteer!

Rick

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The "legend" of using the infamous "tall" knuckle just gets "tall","taller","tallest" with each telling.....next up we'll here how factory caster specs can't be met using it....

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Here's rear mounted pin calipers with braided banjo line. The line is just routed in U shaped down from the banjo fitting and upward to the body fitting.

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The arrangement shown doesn't have the hose crossing the steering axis. This causes lots more twisting in the hose and mandates a very, very careful and thorough check for abrasion and "going taut" lock-to-lock, full jounce to full rebound, all combinations thereof. If the calipers must be rear hung for some reason, you are way better off moving the hardline and frame brackets to the front.

His original post led me to believe that he had pin-type calipers and they were front hung (he said LCA interference). Now he says he will move them to the front...so who knows?

Using the taller late-B knuckles may improve the camber pattern a small amount but definitely TRIPLES the bumpsteer!

Rick

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So Rick which is it, the Chrysler engineers are brilliant or are they idiots?

In your articles of disc brake conversions you expound the virtues of the Chrysler engineers when it comes to the use of the taller knuckles on earlier models yet you chastise them because of the way they mounted the calipers?

You seem to forget you are dealing with Mopar owners that because the shading of reproduction hardware is off by one or 2 shades, do you really think they are going to move the brake line attachmant point and bend up their own lines ?

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My knowledge of bump steer is this. You need to form a parallelogram with these 4 points. The lower control arm pivot. The inner tie rod pivot. The lower ball joint pivot. And the outer tie rod pivot. Can you explain how raising the upper ball joint pivot affects this? I don't see it.
Doug

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Maybe this will help you see... ;->



Rick

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So Rick which is it, the Chrysler engineers are brilliant or are they idiots?

In your articles of disc brake conversions you expound the virtues of the Chrysler engineers when it comes to the use of the taller knuckles on earlier models yet you chastise them because of the way they mounted the calipers?

You seem to forget you are dealing with Mopar owners that because the shading of reproduction hardware is off by one or 2 shades, do you really think they are going to move the brake line attachmant <sic> point and bend up their own lines ?

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I thought Dr.Diff came up with a solution to this by using GM brake hoses from a GTO Chevelle etc.

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My knowledge of bump steer is this. You need to form a parallelogram with these 4 points. The lower control arm pivot. The inner tie rod pivot. The lower ball joint pivot. And the outer tie rod pivot. Can you explain how raising the upper ball joint pivot affects this? I don't see it.
Doug

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Maybe this will help you see... ;->



Rick

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So Rick which is it, the Chrysler engineers are brilliant or are they idiots?

In your articles of disc brake conversions you expound the virtues of the Chrysler engineers when it comes to the use of the taller knuckles on earlier models yet you chastise them because of the way they mounted the calipers?

You seem to forget you are dealing with Mopar owners that because the shading of reproduction hardware is off by one or 2 shades, do you really think they are going to move the brake line attachmant <sic> point and bend up their own lines ?

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I thought Dr.Diff came up with a solution to this by using GM brake hoses from a GTO Chevelle etc.

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Huh?

In 25 years, I never wrote anything positive about a "taller knuckle swap". Quite the contrary! So I'm lost re: that comment.

I see very little functional difference re: caliper mounting position, esp. for anything close to normal street driving. The important thing is that hose routing; stock setups always crossed the steering axis. When they moved the calipers to the rear, they also moved the frame bracket to the front. No hose swap can correct this, the frame bracket needs to be moved. Yes, a lot of guys won't bother do that -- that's the danger! I have seen a LOT of brake-swapped Mopars with brake hoses that are, effectively, the steering stop! Scary feces!

It isn't impossible to have a decent setup with both ends of the hose on one side or the other (of the knuckle), you just need to really take the time to be 100% sure all parameters I've outlined are met, and be cognizant that hose life will be reduced (from the twisting).

Rick

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Maybe I didn't say it properly above but I didn't say you were telling people to use the taller knuckles, you always were against it and if I remember correctly you said that the Chrysler engineers knew more/better than Joe shade-tree, I took what you had to say on the subject as gospel because you know more than this Joe Shade-tree. I haven't used the taller knuckles yet , I'm still over incorrectly plated hardware, but enough people have used them and haven't died that there doesn't appear to be the issue some other believe there is ???

But you are incorrect with your hose crossing the steering axis, that didn't happen till 1970 on a B body , 66-69 B bodies AND 6?-72 A bodies have the calipers mounted to the rear AND hose attachment point is also to the rear.

My spell checker doesn't see anything wrong so you won't have to worry yourself with that this time around .

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....
It isn't impossible to have a decent setup with both ends of the hose on one side or the other (of the knuckle), you just need to really take the time to be 100% sure all parameters I've outlined are met, and be cognizant that hose life will be reduced (from the twisting).

Rick

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It's not idiot proof. You've got to think things out/

I run braided hose. The hose picture had been on the car from 1993 to 2010. It's been in 4 years of Iowa salty winters. It out lived: a broken K-member, bent steel rim/dimpled up shock tower hole/bent valance, and a few off race track surface "excursions", and about 80,000 miles

I only took it off because I changed some stuff. Hose was fine.

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Every time this topic comes up, it seems to feed on itself, ad infinitum.

The diagram isn't a Mopar, and may not be perfect. You asked for an explanation as to why moving the ball joint affects bumpsteer, and this does make that clear.

There's an old engineering axiom: Perfection is the enemy of good. At some point, you've gotta say "uncle", and get the pig into production. Lots of Mopars were pretty far from perfect. EG: fast-ratio E-bodies with lousy Ackermann (the engineer told me, basically: "it worked OK"...and it does. Most of the '80s-'90s FWD stuff with MacPherson struts, and the horrendous linkless swaybar setup. And, worst of all, F/J/M-body front suspension. Plot that curve! But, as was pointed out, nobody got killed. The cars just could'a been better. (A few Chrysler engineers did quit over the F/J/M suspension however).

I have cut some pretty fast lap times with the FWD stuff, and, on a smooth course, even the F/J/M stuff can work. Make the asphalt bumpy or undulating, though... ;->

Generally, all the later ('60-'62-up) longitudinal T-bar suspension designs (the ones with the adjuster in the LCA) were very, very good. I have the SAE papers that compare them to contemporary competitors, which looks like F1 vs. soap box racer. My point, therefore, is why, if the design is so very good, knowingly degrade it, when the parts to do it right are pretty easy to come by?

One the hose routing issue: I stand corrected, I was thinking "single piston caliper". But the point remains unchanged, on any non-OEM swap, be sure to check for stretch and abrasion as I outlined.

Rick

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My knowledge of bump steer is this. You need to form a parallelogram with these 4 points. The lower control arm pivot. The inner tie rod pivot. The lower ball joint pivot. And the outer tie rod pivot. Can you explain how raising the upper ball joint pivot affects this? I don't see it.
Doug

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Maybe this will help you see... ;->



Rick

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So rather than just posting the picture how about explaining what it represents.... Cause the blue lines are more of a concern in bump steer & spindle height has a minimal effect on those... In my limited background the red lines are represent a angle that effects anti-dive characteristics allot more than bumpsteer... Why not tells us the what & why not just post a picture....

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Thanks Rick, question, is there a quality repop of the A,B,E spindle because are getting harder to come by?

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Thanks Rick, question, is there a quality repop of the A,B,E spindle because are getting harder to come by?

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Master Power Brakes sells a good re-pop late A/E spindle.

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As I mentioned, somebody actually took the time to measure and plot this. If I can find the file or chart I will post it here. The toe change was approx. 3X on the '73-up B knuckle vs the correct one. (On a car originally equipped with the "short" knuckle).

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I looked and could not find the chart I saw. It showed the tall spindles toe change almost identical to the short one. I do agree camber change will change toe. Camber will change unless both upper and lower control arms are the same length. That's not going to happen.
Doug

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The chart in the post above is the one I saw. It shows the tall spindles toe change almost identical to the short one. <snip>

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