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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1082437
09/26/11 02:21 AM
09/26/11 02:21 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
DakFink
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
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Quote:
(everything in a car is a math formula)
Isn't that the TRUTH!!!This is why I learned a long time ago, when it comes to cams I know enough to know the basics. If I need details I'll call on the Professionals that make them.
Too many numbers that if any 1 is changed it also changes the aspect of all the other numbers. That's why you get so many ABOUT or SHOULD or MIGHT or wide spread variables when talking about cams.
Then you have to also consider how well the other Pieces-Parts / Numbers in the engine work together as pointed out above.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: Ari440]
#1082440
09/26/11 02:02 PM
09/26/11 02:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,202
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,202
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
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I don't know the math but I did switch heads, intake and carbs. this year on my pump gas 518 C.I. street motor keeping the same solid roller camshaft similar to yours, 260 @ .050 intake and 266 @ .060 exhaust side. The motor had a set of CNC ported Eddy RPM heads (intakes flowed 310 CFM at .700 lift at 28 inches of water on a Superflow 600 bench)with a six pak intake and carbs, it made peak power at 5800 RPM the last time it was on a engine dyno and peak torque at 4600 RPM. I switch the heads to a set of Indy SR max wedge ports that flowed 350 CFM at .700 lift on the same flow bench as the Eddy RPM, the peak HP is now at 7000 RPM and peak torque was at 4800 RPM  The car use to cross the finish line in the 1/4 mile at 6200 RPM with the old heads and intake system and now crosses at 7000 RPM with the Indy 400-3 intake and a single Holley 1050 CFM Dominator, no other changes  I say use the cam you got to start with and see if you like the results 
on my 440-6
from the eddy,s rpm to the indy sr,s how much more power did you gain
I have a set of stage six heads and would like to try indy sr,s that are max wedge ported with the indy tunnelram six pack setup im working on
You have a PM on this  
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: emarine01]
#1082442
09/26/11 06:51 PM
09/26/11 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Mike, the 260/262 roller is it a 296R-6? And have you thought about how your gona raise the plenum floor on that larrrrge port W5 intake 
I dont remember the number on it... I tried before to
look it up but didnt find any data so I had to do it
in the block... that intake goes on as is... its all
matched to the heads
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: gregsdart]
#1082444
09/27/11 05:48 AM
09/27/11 05:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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FWIW, a couple of "learned" engine builders on your side of the Pacific discussed this on another site a while back - They both ended up agreeing that a rule of thumb would be to add appx 8 degrees @ .50 when selcting a 408 camshaft over a 360. Not sure how they arrived at that figure - experience probably - but it seems to concur with whats been said here.....
Last edited by Moparmal; 09/27/11 06:41 AM.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: dannysbee]
#1082445
09/27/11 09:34 AM
09/27/11 09:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
The same cam and head with only a cubic inch change will make aprox the same hp. The larger engine will just make it at a lower rpm.
Doesn't a stock 440 and a stock 383 HP use the same cam and heads? So if this is true then why does a stock 440 make more HP than a stock 383 HP? Now it may not make the same HP/CI but more cubes still make more power.
And further what if say the 360 isn't using the full potential of its cam and heads?
A lot of variables here.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1082446
09/27/11 09:52 AM
09/27/11 09:52 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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If you put the 440 avs on the 383 and put a good set of valve springs on it so it will turn the rpm needed to match the 440 air flow. Put a 3.91 gear in the 383 and a 3.23 in the 440 to match the power curves. You will be surprised how close they are.
There are exceptions to every rule, sure the over cammed 360 will run better as a 408. You have a hydraulic cam and can't turn enough rpm to meet you heads limit. In both those cases a 408 will run better than the 360.
The point I am trying to make is don't think you are going to take the heads, cam, induction, and headers off of your well matched 360 put them on a 408 and make 13-14 percent more Hp. If you do there was a problem with your 360.
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: dannysbee]
#1082447
09/27/11 05:39 PM
09/27/11 05:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
If you put the 440 avs on the 383 and put a good set of valve springs on it so it will turn the rpm needed to match the 440 air flow. Put a 3.91 gear in the 383 and a 3.23 in the 440 to match the power curves. You will be surprised how close they are.
There are exceptions to every rule, sure the over cammed 360 will run better as a 408. You have a hydraulic cam and can't turn enough rpm to meet you heads limit. In both those cases a 408 will run better than the 360.
The point I am trying to make is don't think you are going to take the heads, cam, induction, and headers off of your well matched 360 put them on a 408 and make 13-14 percent more Hp. If you do there was a problem with your 360.
I totally understand what you are saying but in every case I've seen more cubes make more power. Even in stock form. This is how the factories do it, same cams, same heads, same throttle body, more displacement, more power.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: emarine01]
#1082449
09/28/11 07:11 AM
09/28/11 07:11 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
From the 4 inch throw small block posts on here over the years It seems that the smaller cid 408 to 416 with good heads 300cfm to 330cfm make peek power around 6500 to 6800 with cams in the 260 to 270 @.050 range.... There really are too many variables for a rule approach
Well my cam is 276 @ .050 and I need it to turn 7000-7200. I don't think that will be a problem.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1082450
09/28/11 01:38 PM
09/28/11 01:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
emarine01
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Quote:
Quote:
From the 4 inch throw small block posts on here over the years It seems that the smaller cid 408 to 416 with good heads 300cfm to 330cfm make peek power around 6500 to 6800 with cams in the 260 to 270 @.050 range.... There really are too many variables for a rule approach
Well my cam is 276 @ .050 and I need it to turn 7000-7200. I don't think that will be a problem.
I would think with 276 on the intake low 7s would be easy, Are you gona advance it 4*
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: emarine01]
#1082451
09/28/11 01:51 PM
09/28/11 01:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From the 4 inch throw small block posts on here over the years It seems that the smaller cid 408 to 416 with good heads 300cfm to 330cfm make peek power around 6500 to 6800 with cams in the 260 to 270 @.050 range.... There really are too many variables for a rule approach
Well my cam is 276 @ .050 and I need it to turn 7000-7200. I don't think that will be a problem.
I would think with 276 on the intake low 7s would be easy, Are you gona advance it 4*
Actually it should have been in at 108 but I had to move it to 104 to get valve to piston clearance.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1082452
09/28/11 02:56 PM
09/28/11 02:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
emarine01
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From the 4 inch throw small block posts on here over the years It seems that the smaller cid 408 to 416 with good heads 300cfm to 330cfm make peek power around 6500 to 6800 with cams in the 260 to 270 @.050 range.... There really are too many variables for a rule approach
Well my cam is 276 @ .050 and I need it to turn 7000-7200. I don't think that will be a problem.
I would think with 276 on the intake low 7s would be easy, Are you gona advance it 4*
Actually it should have been in at 108 but I had to move it to 104 to get valve to piston clearance.
.... you run that much exhaust duration & lift...  Must be a nitrous engine 
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: emarine01]
#1082453
09/28/11 04:00 PM
09/28/11 04:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From the 4 inch throw small block posts on here over the years It seems that the smaller cid 408 to 416 with good heads 300cfm to 330cfm make peek power around 6500 to 6800 with cams in the 260 to 270 @.050 range.... There really are too many variables for a rule approach
Well my cam is 276 @ .050 and I need it to turn 7000-7200. I don't think that will be a problem.
I would think with 276 on the intake low 7s would be easy, Are you gona advance it 4*
Actually it should have been in at 108 but I had to move it to 104 to get valve to piston clearance.
.... you run that much exhaust duration & lift... Must be a nitrous engine
The exh is 284 @ .050 with .714 net lift. Not a nitrous engine, but it does have a TR and 2 750 Demons. It's a SS grind I got from a SS racer friend that only had about 20 dyno pulls on it. He said they made 650HP with it but they were still looking for another 30 HP. I don't know what they were twisting it to but I'm sure it was over 8000.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1082454
03/25/12 01:22 PM
03/25/12 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
emarine01
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From the 4 inch throw small block posts on here over the years It seems that the smaller cid 408 to 416 with good heads 300cfm to 330cfm make peek power around 6500 to 6800 with cams in the 260 to 270 @.050 range.... There really are too many variables for a rule approach
Well my cam is 276 @ .050 and I need it to turn 7000-7200. I don't think that will be a problem.
I would think with 276 on the intake low 7s would be easy, Are you gona advance it 4*
Actually it should have been in at 108 but I had to move it to 104 to get valve to piston clearance.
.... you run that much exhaust duration & lift... Must be a nitrous engine
The exh is 284 @ .050 with .714 net lift. Not a nitrous engine, but it does have a TR and 2 750 Demons. It's a SS grind I got from a SS racer friend that only had about 20 dyno pulls on it. He said they made 650HP with it but they were still looking for another 30 HP. I don't know what they were twisting it to but I'm sure it was over 8000.
How did the new engine work out? Did it pull as you expected?
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: dannysbee]
#1082455
03/25/12 03:59 PM
03/25/12 03:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Doesn't work, it's not linear.
If the heads are already small, the 408 will run out of steam even earlier.
If the heads are too big the 408 will show better at all speeds.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Cam duration vs cubic inches
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1082456
03/26/12 03:46 AM
03/26/12 03:46 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 384
Australia
Mcode69
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 384
Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
The same cam and head with only a cubic inch change will make aprox the same hp. The larger engine will just make it at a lower rpm.
Doesn't a stock 440 and a stock 383 HP use the same cam and heads? So if this is true then why does a stock 440 make more HP than a stock 383 HP? Now it may not make the same HP/CI but more cubes still make more power.
Years ago we used to run a bracket altered with a 383, the 383 burned up the crank so we freshened up a 440 short between meetings and changed only the short engine, left everything else alone, plus aquired a RB version of the same intake [torker 2] I think.
Anyway the point being the altered picked up either 1 tenth or 1 MPH, but not both. Can't remember which one it picked up. We couldn't believe it, we were expecting a few tenths at least
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