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440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
#1072976
09/11/11 10:23 AM
09/11/11 10:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
MMiller
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
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Compression tests have reveiled #1 and #5 have no compression with valve train on. Measure the compressed height of the valve springs and they are 1.63". Take off the valve train and the valve springs measure 1.93". Put compressed air to the cylinders, with no valve train on and they hold great. With rockers on, and compressed air, it either leaks out the exhaust or the carb.
Engine back ground: Its a 440 with a mild .470" lift cam, hydraulic lifters, stock valve train. It ran fine at the end of 2009, and was parked until about July of this year. The 915s were put on in 2009 and only have probably 25 miles on them, as its a pulling truck, trailered everywhere, not streetable. Heads have new valves and 3 angle valve job.
I pulled the lifters on #1 and disassembled them. They looked great, as far as wear, and found no contamination. I put them back in and the problem is the same. This engine ran great in 2009. The shortblock has been together since 2003 and is solid. Compression checks in other cylinders show 215 psi cranking pressure.
What am I missing? I am going out later today to take off the rockers again, and check the height of the valve stems, but I think they are consistant. I did put new valve springs this week, because I think it was floating the valves after sitting all this time. I also ran a bunch of Sea Foam in it last night for 45 minutes at 1500-2500 rpms, and when I shut if off, it was still missing. Ignition is checking out fine.
Thanks for the help guys.
Michael
Last edited by MMiller; 09/11/11 10:24 AM.
93 W250 CTD getrag, Bosch 185 injectors, AFE air filter. Trailer puller, daily driver,
90 W250 CTD 727 with smokin 5" stacks. Off road truck
75 Dodge W200 440 4spd 4x4 locked front and rear, twin disc clutch, E85. Pulling truck
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MMiller]
#1072977
09/11/11 11:12 AM
09/11/11 11:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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w valve train off leakdown is good which tells you the long block (incl the valves in Q) are sealing. Setting #1/#5 cyls on TDC compression one at a time of course can you see what is holding the valves open? how much preload/can you move the p rod(s) down further by hand. From your descrip it almost sounds like the cup/plunger etc in those 2 lifters are hanging up even tho on dissassembly they looked OK
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1072978
09/11/11 11:22 AM
09/11/11 11:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
w valve train off leakdown is good which tells you the long block (incl the valves in Q) are sealing. Setting #1/#5 cyls on TDC compression one at a time of course can you see what is holding the valves open? how much preload/can you move the p rod(s) down further by hand. From your descrip it almost sounds like the cup/plunger etc in those 2 lifters are hanging up even tho on dissassembly they looked OK
 i would disassemble those 2 cyl. and make sure everything is straight and the keepers are on correctly.
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1072979
09/11/11 11:24 AM
09/11/11 11:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Strawdawg
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member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
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X2....if air leaks out with the valve train on...then the valves have to be open....valves are not stuck open because it seals with the shafts removed. You should be able to see this in the preload and/or with your eyes (watch the springs for movement as well as the lifter) as you tighten the shafts down while those cylinders are at tdc.
While you are at it, check the the preload on a couple of other cylinders to make sure it is not borderline excessive for the heck of it.
Steve
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: Strawdawg]
#1072980
09/11/11 11:53 AM
09/11/11 11:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
MMiller
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
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So with the engine off, I should be able to collapse the lifters? I'm not sure that I can...When I pulled the lifters for #1, I could not push them down until I disassembled them. Without oil in them I could push the plunger down.
I think that when I work on it today, I will move the lifters from #1 to #3 to make sure my problem moves to #3. If it does then I will know without a doubt that the lifters are causing me grief.
If I can get the lifters to work correctly, then I would put them back in thier proper holes, otherwise I guess I'll have to get new lifters.
Thanks guys, I thought I was going crazy.
Michael
93 W250 CTD getrag, Bosch 185 injectors, AFE air filter. Trailer puller, daily driver,
90 W250 CTD 727 with smokin 5" stacks. Off road truck
75 Dodge W200 440 4spd 4x4 locked front and rear, twin disc clutch, E85. Pulling truck
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MMiller]
#1072981
09/11/11 12:16 PM
09/11/11 12:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Strawdawg
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
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If you do that, you will probably wipe the cam...once broken in, the lifters MUST stay with the original lobes!!!!!!!!!
yes, the plunger should move down so you have a problem...get a couple of new lifters and do a fresh break in sequence just like you had changed cam and lifters....
Steve
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MMiller]
#1072983
09/11/11 12:26 PM
09/11/11 12:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Don't move lifters around.  If everything else checks out like everyone has said, then I would put shorter push rods in those 2 clys. The others ones may not be far behind. New valve jobs sink the valve deeper in the head which gives you taller valve stems and if the valve stem isn't ground, then you need shorter push rods with non adjustable rockers. For performance you really should upgrade to adj rockers even with a hydralic cam and then you wouldn't be having this problem. imo And I seriously doubt your gonna find all the valve tips at the same height, after a valve job. Your machinist didn't/couldn't charge you to "blueprint" em. Hope you didn't run it too long if the valves are actually hanging open. That's why adjustable rockers are handy for this kind of thing.
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1072984
09/11/11 12:47 PM
09/11/11 12:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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In the back of my mind I thought it was unlikely that 2 lifters could b hanging up esp as they tend 2 b trouble free & when they do act up they just get noisy & w the subsequent posts it sure sounds like a preload prob. Holler when you find something
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1072985
09/11/11 12:49 PM
09/11/11 12:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,428
It's a dry heat
gtx6970
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,428
It's a dry heat
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I'm in this very boat right now on my truck. After I got the transmission straighted out . Wife drives the truck one day. And all of a sudden I now have a dead miss in 2 cylinders. Compression ck showed one cylinder on each side show 25psi or less pulled the heads to find exhaust seats sunk into the head pretty bad in the affected cylinders Worst part is - machine shop called friday morning, both heads are cracked. Not been a good last couple of weeks 
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1072987
09/11/11 02:05 PM
09/11/11 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Adjustable rockers???? If so did you adjust them properly. With the lifter on the base circle of the cam make sure that the lifter cup is at the top of the travel with the lifter, cam, push rod and rocker just making contact. Now adjust 1-2 turns more. Make sure not to adjust the 0 + off the plunger that is in the bottom of its travel.1.63 is pretty low installed height for a big block. Installed height for a big block is usually in the mid 1.83.1.86 range.
Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks.
But: Don't fix it, if it Works!
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MoparforLife]
#1072988
09/11/11 02:26 PM
09/11/11 02:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
MMiller
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
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Not going to run it, I was just going to swap parts and see if the valves open....
Non adjustable rockers are on this motor. When I put it together years ago, it was a pump gas motor, in a truck that I drove on the street, 4 wheeled and street class truck pulled. It was an idle to 5500 engine. I put the small chamber heads on, switched to E85, and put a used twin disc clutch, and took the truck off the street. When its right it turns about 6000 rpm down the track with good power. I'm hoping to finish up a couple hooks yet this year, and next year building a fresh 470/iron head engine(rules on heads and cu.inch) and get some nice performance parts.
I'm not planning on doing anything to wipe the cam out, just making sure I spend money on the right parts. Been chasing this problem for a while. Don't want to spend more money then I have to on this bullet.
Michael
93 W250 CTD getrag, Bosch 185 injectors, AFE air filter. Trailer puller, daily driver,
90 W250 CTD 727 with smokin 5" stacks. Off road truck
75 Dodge W200 440 4spd 4x4 locked front and rear, twin disc clutch, E85. Pulling truck
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MMiller]
#1072989
09/11/11 03:36 PM
09/11/11 03:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Strawdawg
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
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Good...it's hard to see experience thru the monitor  the plunger should sink into the lifter as you draw the shaft down until it reaches whatever preload your push rods provide. If it was fine before, then it is unlikely that you suddenly have to much preload now....sounds like something is preventing the lifter from adjusting as it should to the pushrod length
Steve
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MMiller]
#1072990
09/11/11 04:25 PM
09/11/11 04:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Not going to run it, I was just going to swap parts and see if the valves open....
Non adjustable rockers are on this motor. When I put it together years ago, it was a pump gas motor, in a truck that I drove on the street, 4 wheeled and street class truck pulled. It was an idle to 5500 engine. I put the small chamber heads on, switched to E85, and put a used twin disc clutch, and took the truck off the street. When its right it turns about 6000 rpm down the track with good power. I'm hoping to finish up a couple hooks yet this year, and next year building a fresh 470/iron head engine(rules on heads and cu.inch) and get some nice performance parts.
I'm not planning on doing anything to wipe the cam out, just making sure I spend money on the right parts. Been chasing this problem for a while. Don't want to spend more money then I have to on this bullet.
Michael
it's funny - i'll bet most of us on this site (myself included) never considered a mopar in the way you use yours for!
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: mikemee1331]
#1072991
09/11/11 07:35 PM
09/11/11 07:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
MMiller
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
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it's funny - i'll bet most of us on this site (myself included) never considered a mopar in the way you use yours for!
Here's my favorite pic of the truck when it was still pump gas, and I wheeled it.
93 W250 CTD getrag, Bosch 185 injectors, AFE air filter. Trailer puller, daily driver,
90 W250 CTD 727 with smokin 5" stacks. Off road truck
75 Dodge W200 440 4spd 4x4 locked front and rear, twin disc clutch, E85. Pulling truck
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Re: 440 dead miss 2 cylinders??
[Re: MMiller]
#1072993
09/11/11 07:44 PM
09/11/11 07:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
MMiller
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522
Lenox Iowa
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I did mess with it a little this afternoon. I pulled out three lifters and put them on the bench. I could not compress any of the lifters with a pushrod, and probably close to 125# of push. If I take them apart and get the oil out of them, then I can cycle them fine.
Unless someone can think of anything else to do, I'm going to order a new set of lifters from Comp tomorrow. I'll get some of those hydraulic lifters that are "anti-pump up" or something like that, to see if I can squeak any more revs out of this motor. I'm not scared of hurting the engine, the camshaft and stock port heads are probably my limiting factor in rpm range anyway.
Thanks guys, hope you enjoy the video and pics. Someday the truck is getting a nice body, painted in period correct, factory colors. Maybe a nice pale yellow with white top......or Macho colors. Haven't decided yet. I liked the show Simon and Simon...
93 W250 CTD getrag, Bosch 185 injectors, AFE air filter. Trailer puller, daily driver,
90 W250 CTD 727 with smokin 5" stacks. Off road truck
75 Dodge W200 440 4spd 4x4 locked front and rear, twin disc clutch, E85. Pulling truck
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Go ahead and order lifters... 