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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: AndyF]
#1070021
09/08/11 07:16 PM
09/08/11 07:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
That seems like a good package. If it was me I'd go ahead and build a 572 since it wouldn't cost anymore money. Then use a flat top piston and you'll still be right at 14:1 or so. A 4.5 x 4.5 engine with flat top pistons and -1 heads should make excellent power and be fairly economical to build. All of the parts are off the shelf. There shouldn't be any problem making 850 to 900 hp with that package if the engine is built with some care.
First of all, I don't want to step on any toes here, but why in the world would anybody use -1 heads when you are building something like this? The max HP, and I mean max is 850 with the -1 heads, and that's an exceptional -1 motor. And it doesn't cost that much more for B1 originals or even 572-13's, but it will cost more for the paired rockers and all of these parts are off the shelf too. Someone here even said they had a set for sale reasonable, and there's room to grow with the B1 head. A mildly ported set will make 850HP, and I mean a cleaned up port match and good valve job. And nobody I know that races is ever happy with what they start out to build. The Predator is a good choise too, but I don't know if you could keep them at 850HP. And the 572 makes sense because the cost is the same for a 4.500 stroke crank or 4.250. Now go ahead start telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and how -1's make 900+HP and flow 390cfm. I have used -1's, B1 originals, stage 6's, 452's and 906's steel heads and now predators. They all have their limits. But if you are absolutly sure you won't ever want more HP, then use the -1's and build a 540. Just sayin, nobody is ever satisfied, at least nobody I know.
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: boatracer572]
#1070026
09/08/11 08:56 PM
09/08/11 08:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Any engine that is new making 850HP, whether it's maxed out or has more potential is going to cost $20,000 with a steel block. You could build a 950HP, but the difference would be the quality of the parts, Eagle crank, eagle rods, comp lifters, etc. If you buy used, have some spare used parts, or are willing to buy used parts, you might save $5000 for something like that. But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....and I would say this is if you put it all together, no dyno, unless you know someone that is capable. Good luck on your build.
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: moparniac]
#1070028
09/08/11 10:20 PM
09/08/11 10:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Quote:
But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....
just asking but are you saying once you spend $5000 on an aluminum block you will be spending another $3500 on machine working totaling $8500 before assembly? anyone wanna buy my world aluminum block with about 500 miles on it for $4000 all machined up(all arp hardware?) 
Where do you get that? Let me explain....it would cost an additional $3500 over a steel block for an aluminum block with all of the machine work done. And a person could save possibly $5000 opting for used parts over new. Is that clearer?
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: camastomcat]
#1070029
09/09/11 01:03 AM
09/09/11 01:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,264
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,264
Oregon
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The Indy crate engine pricing could be useful for this discussion. http://www.indyheads.com/images/price2011.4b.pdfAn aluminum block upgrade is $1800 so that is a decent deal. The 930 hp 572 motor is about $22,000 if you upgrade to the Ti valves and get the Callies crank. The cheapest deal to make 850 hp looks to be about $18,000, but some of the parts used to get the price down might cost more in the long run. As pointed out earlier, this is for a race gas motor. If you want to run E85 or pump gas, then the price goes up. Of course, if a person already has some parts sitting around then the price could go down.
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: moparniac]
#1070031
09/09/11 01:28 AM
09/09/11 01:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,610
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,610
Las Vegas
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Quote:
Quote:
But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....
just asking but are you saying once you spend $5000 on an aluminum block you will be spending another $3500 on machine working totaling $8500 before assembly? anyone wanna buy my world aluminum block with about 500 miles on it for $4000 all machined up(all arp hardware?)
Umm my KB block was a lot more than $5000 by the time was all said and done. By the time is was set up for pushrod oiling, the lifter bores were bushed and the 55MM cam tunnel was done the bill was a good deal higher. If you want the best stuff it comes at a cost..........
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1070033
09/09/11 07:56 AM
09/09/11 07:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,281
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,281
Shelby Twp. Mi
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Quote:
Maybe MoparBillys apporach would be better. Build a good motor that makes 850ish HP. Put a fogger on it and spray it to run 8.50's. A simple little 150-200 shot shoudl be more than sufficient to do this. IMO that is about the best budget bang for the buck out there.
X2! Excellent idear. Aftermarket block, 540" or so, some EZ or SR heads with max port volume that use 'cheap' rockers. Use a nitrous friendly and gentle roller cam. Should get you 750-800 HP, spray the rest via fogger.
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: HardcoreB]
#1070034
09/09/11 08:12 AM
09/09/11 08:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
RT540
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
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For a budget build, I would still start with 440-1 MCH cnc ported, and as far as rockers, with a mild cam and the correct springs for that cam, you can get lots of runs with Indy rockers before they start to fatique and break. Springs should still have 20-30pounds more pressure than recommended, for extra safety.
The same goes for B1 originals, with a mild cam 0,700-0,750 lift, the Dove rockers will have a pretty good chance of lasting a couples of seasons. With mild cam, I mean not to go crazy on the 020 and 050 duration. ( specially on the 020 value).
Fast ramp cams eats both springs and rockers.
540 for 440-1 MCH porting and 2.25 valves and
572 for B1 originals, also with MCH porting would be a good start IMO.
T&D rockers and 2.30 Titan valves would definitively be nice, but not economical, as this thread is about.
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: HardcoreB]
#1070035
09/09/11 08:13 AM
09/09/11 08:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,366
Lehigh Acres, Florida
rickstershemi
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,366
Lehigh Acres, Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe MoparBillys apporach would be better. Build a good motor that makes 850ish HP. Put a fogger on it and spray it to run 8.50's. A simple little 150-200 shot shoudl be more than sufficient to do this. IMO that is about the best budget bang for the buck out there.
X2! Excellent idear. Aftermarket block, 540" or so, some EZ or SR heads with max port volume that use 'cheap' rockers. Use a nitrous friendly and gentle roller cam. Should get you 750-800 HP, spray the rest via fogger.
IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistancy is your best friend 
Rickster
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: camastomcat]
#1070037
09/09/11 09:43 AM
09/09/11 09:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,610
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,610
Las Vegas
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Quote:
IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistancy is your best friend
Rickster
I figured someone would say that. Well from my experience that is simply not a true statement. If the saem care if given to ensure all aspects of your nitrous tune remain the same as you take with the rest of your program I blieve you can be very consistent with it. We are not talking 4 stages and 600=hp here, it would only require a small shot to achieve the goal he is after and if done properly can be deadly consistent.
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1070038
09/09/11 10:47 AM
09/09/11 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,366
Lehigh Acres, Florida
rickstershemi
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,366
Lehigh Acres, Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistency is your best friend
Rickster
I figured someone would say that. Well from my experience that is simply not a true statement. If the saem care if given to ensure all aspects of your nitrous tune remain the same as you take with the rest of your program I blieve you can be very consistent with it. We are not talking 4 stages and 600=hp here, it would only require a small shot to achieve the goal he is after and if done properly can be deadly consistent.
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.....not to mention you can only run nitrous in any of the super classes if you are running a turbo diesel....lol.... at least that was the ruling last I knew 
SUPER STREET
Section 5 – Super Street
ENGINE: 1
FUEL
Page 92
DELETE:
“Nitrous oxide prohibited”
REPLACE WITH:
“Nitrous oxide prohibited, except on diesel-turbocharged engines”
The same goes for SG & SC.....
Rickster
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: rickstershemi]
#1070039
09/09/11 03:08 PM
09/09/11 03:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 495
IL
EchoSixMike
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 495
IL
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I agree with the poster who said -1 make no sense, they really don't. 572" makes the most sense, 604" would be even better. There's a Callies 4.75" on RJ for $800 and you'll be spending money on getting anything other than Winberg/Bryant/Moldex/etc cleaned up and sorted right anyways. B1's are the baseline I'd look at. Just bought TD's for my B-1 and they were $1100'ish with shafts. That's maybe 300-400 more than the Koffel/Dove stuff. If you can't find that $ for a build like this, stop now  The MC's are probably a decent step-up if you wait for the sales or find somebody moving up. I'm going E-85 at 13.8:1 EFI at a lot less cubes and I expect to be around 850, but I'm running drysump. There's no really significant price difference between gas and E-85 if you haven't bought stuff yet. You need more fuel pump & injectors(for me), OK, big deal. The cost difference in this budget is pretty insignificant. It seemed to me that the canted valve stuff was a pretty big $ hit over any of the B-1 wedge stuff. Unported Preds complete were $11k+ and while they're a real step up over any wedge head even unported, that's at least $4k more than I have in my B-1's. S/F.....Ken M
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Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package
[Re: EchoSixMike]
#1070040
09/09/11 09:16 PM
09/09/11 09:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,628
Columbus, Ohio
wheelsup68dart
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,628
Columbus, Ohio
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Thank you for all the suggestions. Keep them coming, may try to do something identical to my Dad's setup. 572 aluminum block, with -13's IIRC. I really don't care for the tunnelram setup, personally I am thinking either a toilet or injector hat setup. By budget build, I am not necessarily thinking of a dollar figure, but mostly what do you trust used versus better to buy new kind of items. Really want this engine capable of running Nitrous as a catch up/make up bracket means only. maybe something to use if I am borderline for making a quick 16/quick 32 field. I know this is gonna be costly, but wondering what I might need to expect. 
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