1st post here folks, Hi to all.

We have bought a 70 R/T V code Challenger.

original 6 pk engine is long gone , 18 spline 4 spd came with it but wrong date code / vin # on it.
All the time I see adds listing cars for sale as numbers matching.
But what about numbers matching original ?
To my way of thinking there are many cars out there that are sold as numbers matching autos but they are not original as far as engine / trans ect.
I come to you folks the pros to ask whats correct ?
If buy chance I can locate a correct dated before my build date { I have the broad cast sheet} HP engine and trans.
Would this R/T Challenger then be #s matching ?

Or if I locate a 1970 HP 440 and 6 pk and use our 18 spline trans that has a date after my build date how much does that de value the restoration ?
We just want to do this correct and be honest about it.
So just what is the rules on numbers matching restoration ?

Thanks, dan

#s matching means the original engine & the original trans, not closely date coded, not forged stampings...

Some people place a higher value on a date code correct engine & trans and thats fine but it isn't numbers matching by any stretch for the imagination...

Thank you for the reply 1 wild R/T.

As we have researched our car its looking like its one of 847 built in 1970.

We got it local from the second owner who had it since 82. The original 440 6pk engine was used in a Dodge 4X4 in the early 90s { sad but true } and that truck was sold long ago.
My younger brother went to school with the guy we got it from so we know its history since 82 anyway.

We have been trying to locate a 70 HP 440 and then planned to add the 6pk set to it. We want to do the restoration as { correct as possible }

So then to describe the car when done. We could claim its a non original 70 HP with correct date code if we do find one.

In you folks opinion is it worth the time and expense to try to match the dates up or would any year 440 HP hold the same value when its done ?

I don't believe the date correct would add much value, but some may feel different. My course of action would be to aggressively pursue the original motor. Any idea of the VIN of the truck or the buyer of the truck, that in my view would be worth the time and effort.

If the original 440 is gone and can not be found, then any 440 will do.

I do know of some "loose" 440 blocks for 1970 Challengers, you should register the car just in case.......


http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/register.shtml

If I know of it or hear of it I will let you know right away that way.

thanks mopar346 and alaskan TA.

The prev owner sold the truck years ago, we are trying to track that buyer down but no luck the past few weeks.

Thanks for the links posted. and the 440 block info.
The car has had one repaint of b5 blue over the original FC7 plum crazy. Its been sitting in a steel building on cement and is in what we think is excellent shape.
We are just starting to get parts rounded up and will stay with all Chrysler parts if at all possible.
One of the other major parts we will have to track down is a 4 spd console correct for the 70 R/T.

Thanks again for the replies, I will be back tomarrow mabey get some pics posted.

The only way a Mopar is matching #'s is if it has the engine and trans it was born with. Some people put value on a correct date coded engine but I think it's either the original engine or it isn't. Having said that though you might as well find a block that has a casting date a few months before your car's build date, it can't hurt anything.
Don't give up on that original engine, I found my matching #'s Challenger R/T engine after 16 years.

Sheldon

If you can't trace down the original block, then
, in my opinion, you should locate a correct dated 440 hp block, from the same assembly plant.
Make sure the casting date as well as the finish date/engine final assembly date
are both aligned correctly with the cars SPD .
A very grey area indeed, but to get in the right ballpark, you generally want the block cast 2-6 weeks prior, and the engine finish date approx 1-10 days prior to the cars "scheduled" production date. Of course that's not written in stone(for example , most 71 Hemi cars have blocks cast in 69). On a car such as a 1970 Challenger R/T 440
six pack 4 -speed dana , Plum Crazy, with buildsheet, you want to restore this car as correct as possible. Don't just drop in a 74 440.
Those that say, "well since the original motor is missing, any motor will do" are not thinking clearly. You want all your date codes where they should be, in relation to the cars production date. In other words, you want to have a correct set of 1970 exhaust manifolds, with casting dates prior to the cars build date, same is true for the
intake manifold, the water pump housing, Alt, etc.
The engine block is no different. Take a little extra time and money to make sure it is correct.
When it is all said and done, you will have a much more correct (valuable) car.
Those are just my opinions .
I also owned a 70 purple six pack challenger R/T
, but mine was an auto with white interior. You will have a stunning
car when you are finished.

Greg

Wards Classic Car Radio Repair Specializing in restoration and sales of Mopar A B E body radios
We can restore YOUR radio usually in less than 7 days
Visit our NEW website..
http://www.wardsclassiccarradiorepair.com
gregward@mchsi.com
phone 256-852-0955

Dan



Welcome to the board.....and congrats on scoreing an E body.......from the way this post is going, and your original comments,....it seems the car you've purchased is headed for restoration, which is great,....but "resale" to the highest bidder sounds like what your after, in regards to the cars value regarding it originality.....if this is the case,....you have a long expensive road ahead of you.......if you bought the car to enjoy,....thats great also, just don't get caught up in the numbers "game",......unless as I said it being done for profit,....I would think one would/should be able to sleep at night, knowing that their car isn't numbers matching

Without going into the whole argument about whether it's going to be a keeper or flipped, for a U or V code E-body the decision on how to restore has to be based on current economics and the market. In this case, the car is quite desireable, but will only realize the full market value if treated to a correct and fullest possible restoration. If top value is your barometer, you probably will need to look for closely date-coded parts, as others have pointed out.

And if the final value of the car is indeed important to you, then there's something else to consider. In the current market, even for U or V code E-bodies, doing a correct restoration can be a dicely proposition unless you will be doing all the work yourself. Even then, depending on what you started with, you might only break even when finished. Which goes full circle back to the "are you gonna keep it or flip it" argument.

Bottom line ; If you're restoring it for yourself, make yourself happy. If you're restoring it to sell, restore it for intended buyers.

As the others have stated, the way I see it is if you can easily come up with a dated block , then by all means use it. Otherwise I wouldn't beat the bushes for it.

It's still a V code car, that has a provenance that can never be taken away. Not worth as much as it would with the original drivetrain, but it doesn't kill the car, either.

MB

Some people place a higher value on a date code correct engine & trans and thats fine but it isn't numbers matching by any stretch for the imagination...

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What would be your best estimate of increased value for a numbers matching Super bee over a non numbers matching expressed in % ?

20%?

Collectors say 15-20% especially with Hemis & Sixpack cars as they are so collectable...

If you find a correcty dated block , it in NO WAY will increase its value to anyone but yourself...it is not numbers matching. Why would anyone care if the engin is close to the build date ?? That would mean you have someone elses numbers matching motor. How does this increase the value of your car ??? The best you can do is to make it look correct and not worry about it. Doing a CORRECT restoration of you car is the best way to increase its value. There is a place here on MOPARTS to post an add for your missing motor. Good luck.

Quote:

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If you find a correcty dated block , it in NO WAY will increase its value to anyone but yourself...

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That's not at all true. There are several people on Moparts, for example, who've said they'd prefer a correctly dated block over whatever someone happened to throw into the car.

It wouldn't increase the value to me, because I agree that it's either #'s matching or it's not, but there are plenty of people who feel differently than you and I do.

To some people a correct date coded car may be preferable to a car that has an engine that is "not" date coded. But that in dollars and cents means very little to me. Being numbers matching is like being pregnant. She either is or she isnt. There is no in between. The whole date coded correct thing is rather diluted.

If you look at the top resellers, their "matching numbers" means that the motor has the proper stamping on it, whether a restamp or original. Original means that it is the original motor. This is big in the world of Corvette resellers and the term is legally accepted for restamps... There is no claim to originality, as lame as that sounds.... Beware when you buy "matching numbers".

Everyone has a different opinion on this it seems, but here is mine.

If it isn't the motor from the factory with the correct vin, I really could care less what motor it has, and would rather have a nice running one. I really don't think date coding adds much value to the equation for the simple fact, most decent cores cost the same, with maybe a little bit of difference for some years, but it sure seems like quite a few chase the date coded block down and many sellers play to this fact.