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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#1062193
08/25/11 12:19 AM
08/25/11 12:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Just to play devils advocate here... Didn't the edelbrock rpm heads have the same problems?
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: Twostick]
#1062194
08/25/11 12:20 AM
08/25/11 12:20 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Quote:
And if you don't check retainer to guide clearance, lifter pre-load on a juice cam or don't know enough to look at the tach, your American made 906's can look like that too.
Quite true, but there aren't multiple posts even here on Moparts that bash factory, MP or Edelbrock heads like they do with the Source heads. All I see is people badmouthing them. Sure, there are some out there that came from a "good" batch, but I'm not too keen on spending a grand on a pair of CHINESE heads, only to have to dump another $500-1000 into them to repair flaws. They are nice because they look close to a stock head when painted, but to pull them out of the box and have to repair cracks, pinholes, retainers/locks......no thanks
1969 Nova
454/M21/3.31
Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD
5.0/4R70W/3.55
(Daily driver)
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: Twostick]
#1062195
08/25/11 12:23 AM
08/25/11 12:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
How come the one to the right looks fine and the two broken ones are mangled? I'd figure that the one to the right would be showing some signs of abuse even if it isn't busted off? All valve springs and keepers are the same (or should be).
Tight valve clearances cause the valve to stick and then the piston hits the valve and bends it. Never heard of a sticky valve causing the top of a guide to shear clean off like that.
If he didn't check guide clearance he not likely checked installed height either. If the spring pressures are different valve to valve, some will float before others which could explain this carnage. A simple disassemble and inspect which should be done to ANY parts before use could have prevented this.
Kevin
But , but , but , the springs are good for .600 lift .... if you believe the hype.
There seems to be some ASSuMEptions going on here ...
Remember these were run out of the box, many have CLAIMED to have just installed them as received and never had any problems after 100 years and 1 million race miles ...
cue the miester of marketing 101 in 3 , 2 , 1 ...
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#1062196
08/25/11 12:29 AM
08/25/11 12:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
And if you don't check retainer to guide clearance, lifter pre-load on a juice cam or don't know enough to look at the tach, your American made 906's can look like that too.
Quite true, but there aren't multiple posts even here on Moparts that bash factory, MP or Edelbrock heads like they do with the Source heads. All I see is people badmouthing them. Sure, there are some out there that came from a "good" batch, but I'm not too keen on spending a grand on a pair of CHINESE heads, only to have to dump another $500-1000 into them to repair flaws. They are nice because they look close to a stock head when painted, but to pull them out of the box and have to repair cracks, pinholes, retainers/locks......no thanks
What do you mean there are multiple posts bashing these head? There are thousands of posts with nothing but love for CCJ and the messiah of mopar big block strokers , those that bash or question get kicked and ridiculed by the throngs of followers ...
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: JohnRR]
#1062197
08/25/11 12:44 AM
08/25/11 12:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
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Hmmmmm,
My MP 452 Aluminum heads came in with one head having no shims installed under the springs,but the other was fine.
I guess all MP heads are junk too,oh wait,these are made for MP by Edelbrock.
I guess we all should buy Indy heads,oh wait,a lot of bashers there too!
All parts must be inspected adjusted and installed by someone with the proper knowledge or issues can and will happen.
I'm not saying 440 Source has not had problems,but it sure seems like a familiar trend,a guy buys the cheapest thing he can find and throws it on and has issues with it.
I would not buy a "certified" used car and drive it accross the country without checking it over myself,why should a new set of heads be any different?
Keith
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#1062199
08/25/11 01:28 AM
08/25/11 01:28 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,568
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,568
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
Quote:
And if you don't check retainer to guide clearance, lifter pre-load on a juice cam or don't know enough to look at the tach, your American made 906's can look like that too.
Quite true, but there aren't multiple posts even here on Moparts that bash factory, MP or Edelbrock heads like they do with the Source heads. All I see is people badmouthing them. Sure, there are some out there that came from a "good" batch, but I'm not too keen on spending a grand on a pair of CHINESE heads, only to have to dump another $500-1000 into them to repair flaws. They are nice because they look close to a stock head when painted, but to pull them out of the box and have to repair cracks, pinholes, retainers/locks......no thanks
You could spend even more for MP Stage VI heads and spend that much and more to fix them. My RPM's needed the valve job fixed. The Chinese don't have the poor quality control market cornered by any stretch.
Do an Indy search. No shortage of crap there either.
If those heads had been properly inspected in the first place any guide issues ie too tall, lack of retainer clearance for the cam intended or broken right OOTB could have been resolved by sending them back. Maybe they were junk OOTB. No way to tell at this point.
Kevin
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: Twostick]
#1062200
08/25/11 04:25 AM
08/25/11 04:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 342
dracut mass usa
sparcy
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 342
dracut mass usa
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quality control is a thing of the past . WE also ride custum motor cycles that break and down . MY 69 charger 500 miles after total reconstruction and about 20,000 dollars in drive train ( IM A LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER) THE trany started acting up (MY BROTHER OWNS A VERY HUGE TRANY SHOP he built it . well I did he told me what to put where -FAILED , combination valve from IN LINE TUBE FAILED , BRAND new headman ceramic headers needed major mods and still rub trany pan . orange box FAILED . I have a chrome alt didnt work oofb and small starter that worked 2 times , the 2 cost over 300 . There is a advanced auto parts starter and alt in my car now because it was after 8 and napa was closed . Im use to my everyday driver so I try to hold my 69 to it, and IM getting close steering , brakes are so good now its so much FUN to drive but the performance is what its all about . HIGH PERFORMANCE CUSTOM !!! plane and simple ..There is one completed engine in the stand and another in the cart waiting for fuel injection and a blower ( THAT WAS BUILT FOR A NEW CHAL )MORE FABRICATING AND MORE BROKEN PARTS AFTER 500 miles .. IF IM lucky LOL !! so whats it all about ? ITS DIFERENT for each and evryone of us . I GOT BRAND NEW PARTS FROM MAGNUM FORCE FOR A BODY AND I OWN 2 Bees and they will not take them back and it was there fault SENDING THE WRONG STUFF .. Fix your heads have them chkd and done rite and go burn rubber !!!!
IF YOU ARE NOT WRECKING STUFF YOU ARE NOT LEARNING !
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: abodiesonly1]
#1062201
08/25/11 09:21 AM
08/25/11 09:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Anyone thinks that's something other than a clearance issue is whacked or has an agenda.
Pot meet kettle ...
Till the OP lets the cat out of the bag on what cam was used bashing the bashers is your agenda ...
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: JohnRR]
#1062203
08/25/11 09:51 AM
08/25/11 09:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
MLR426
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
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All aftermarket heads have to be inspected, straighted up in some fashion or another to fit the application they will be used for. All the aftemarket heads I've bought for customers no matter what brand will need the guides check for correct clearance for the application and valve seats corrected for width,so the contact location for the valve is right, along with a deck mill to flatten the surface usually .006 minimum per head.
After market heads do the talking for themselves on quality and reliability, the members on here just write about the experiences and it's not bashing if the statements are true and backed up with facts.
I'm waiting for the cam size to be told.
logan426
Last edited by Logan426; 08/25/11 09:52 AM.
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: AutoEngineer]
#1062206
08/25/11 11:06 AM
08/25/11 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,743
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,743
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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The picture show some significant clearancing for the pushrods. What brand and ratio rockers were used and what was the net lift at the valve?
The spring pockets look kind of galled up. Were there shims and/or cups under the springs?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: superbeedave]
#1062208
08/25/11 12:44 PM
08/25/11 12:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Challenger1, Neil and JohnRR, YES you guys are right! The broken guide tops are pictured upside down. I should have looked a little closer  However the seal on the right is crooked on the guide top which lead me to the retainer to guide top clearance issue. Also both guides in the picture were intakes. Were the others that broke intakes as well  Sure would like to see some cam specs (possibly higher lift on the intake side), rocker ratio and a whole lot more info on the springs, retainers, rockers and shims/cups used. Also what the push rods look like on the effected broken areas. Lets see some more pics with additional info. 
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: roadhazard]
#1062209
08/25/11 01:21 PM
08/25/11 01:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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FWIW - One reason why there are these crazy 'satisfied' customers for the Stealth heads is automotive demographics. Guys that can't afford (or don't want/need) super-high RPM and HP, buy them and run them as-is. Small cams, lower RPM, stock rockers, etc. They don't push the envelope, so the corner-of-the-box problems don't happen to those guys. As others have said, for demanding applications, things *must* be checked. Now, back to teh diagnosis! 
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1062210
08/25/11 04:27 PM
08/25/11 04:27 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,568
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,568
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
FWIW -
One reason why there are these crazy 'satisfied' customers for the Stealth heads is automotive demographics. Guys that can't afford (or don't want/need) super-high RPM and HP, buy them and run them as-is. Small cams, lower RPM, stock rockers, etc. They don't push the envelope, so the corner-of-the-box problems don't happen to those guys.
As others have said, for demanding applications, things *must* be checked.
Now, back to teh diagnosis!
With a slight proviso: Check them regardless of application. When my E-heads came in they went straight to my machinist for disassembly and the valve job was found wanting. Guides and installed height checked. It added $150 to my machine shop bill. Cheap insurance IMHO. Bet it cost more than that to fix the OP's mess.
Kevin
Last edited by Twostick; 08/25/11 04:28 PM.
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Re: Broken valve guides at 440 Source heads
[Re: Twostick]
#1062211
08/25/11 06:51 PM
08/25/11 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 179
Up in the North and Far Away
AutoEngineer
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 179
Up in the North and Far Away
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Whow, this became a real HOT topic  To be a little more accurate with my words, the valve guide clearances were not measured with a dial indicator or any other measuring device. I apologize, for me checking means that a measuring device has been used. So the actual reading was not checked, it was only estimated being enough by wiggling the valve from the head. That MIGHT have been the Achilles heel at this proven engine combo. Here in surroundings area are a couple of 440 rebuilds with almost similar basic components, using 440 Source heads at look-alike-restored-cars  . Edelbrock, Indy, Procomp etc heads that look like a brick have not been an alternative for those cars. Basicly so far there has not been any big unexpected issues with these heads. Changing the retainers, valve locks and at some cases also springs has saved from many headaches. Here's some more facts from the motor (or fuel for the fire for all 440 Source bashers  ) The 2 broken guides shown are flipped upside down, the top of the valve seals were not hammered off and then they slid down the guide. Three of the broken valve guides were intakes, one exhaust. - Valve springs in this combo are Comp dual valve springs, seat load 130 lbs @ 1.85 and 320 lbs at max lift of the valve. Valve springs were carefully shimmed like GomangoCuda noticed from the wear of spring pockets - Retainers are Comp's chromemoly steel 10° Super Lock and guide clearance at max lift was checked, not close - Roller rocker arms with 1.6 ratio - Rocker arm geometry was corrected with .030 shims under the rocker shafts. - Cam is not very radical, a hydraulic flat tappet Comp XE284H - With 1.6 rockers, intake valve lift .541 and exhaust valve .544 - Lifters, Comp High Energy. Preload 3/4 turn, ~.040. With ½ turn they were noisy, a little more preload was added. - Pushrods are 3/8" diameter. Therefore the picture shows some significant clearancing for the pushrods. Pushrods are .080” wall chromemoly steel tubing and they all are straight as an arrow, no bend rods. - Motor was driven less than 1000 miles after a complete rebuild - Valves have not hit pistons, at least no sign of it - Over rev, more than possible knowing the driving habits of owner  About tight valve guides [Email]Jeff@MCH[/Email] wrote earlier here at Moparts https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6665484&Main=6663766 Quote:
ive never really seen tight guides though i ream them when i port them... out of the box they ream them from the port side up towards the valve top and sometimes there is a burr turned up above the guide which will restrict oil from getting in to lubricate teh valve/guide,,, ive told brandon about it and i believe he has fixed it with recent "batches" of heads
My original question was, has anyone else had similar problems with these heads and have you used some standard replacement guides or some custom fabricated guides to fit the Source heads? I did not find any direct replacement guides for these heads from 440Source website. Maybe I will give them a call.
Three of the broken valve guides were intakes, one was exhaust
After all comments, the final diagnosis for the broken valve guides is still open? 
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