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Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HotRodDave] #1058541
08/25/11 07:25 PM
08/25/11 07:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Quote:

If I could figure out a way to get e-85 here I would build a very high compression 273 MPG motor for my 65 cuda and I am confidant I could get it over 30 MPG and run faster than the factory 274 4bbl motors did. I heard someone the otherday sy a Yugo was actually a good car, should I listen because someone else said it or do I trust my own experiance?


E10 Ethanol (gasahol) was introduced here in Nebraska in the 80's & immed caused vapor lock/stalling at lights in alot of carbed vehicles. It did cause probs w hoses/carb internals but by now everyone has newer quality replacent parts in those areas that are alcohol resistant so no prob there & it does absorb water. It's listed as 89 octane & has always been a dime cheaper. "E85" I had thought about building an E85 high comp SB for mileage as it is avail here but the price has steadily risen which discouraged me. Dave I remem your 29 mpg machine that almost cracked the 30 mpg barrier & no one believed that you were getting that good mileage . I did not know that you could dump E85 in as is & run it as way back several people (here) had to have their tanks pumped out after trying it cause it was (at the time) way cheaper than regular. I rented a Yugo one time & I went around a corner fast and a side rear iirc window fell out from a minor bump & the next day the starter wouldn't crank


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HotRodDave] #1058542
08/26/11 11:43 PM
08/26/11 11:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 759
10,000 lakes and a swamp
aduster340 Offline
super street
aduster340  Offline
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Posts: 759
10,000 lakes and a swamp
Quote:

Haven't raced with it but every thing else is just the same. I have run up to 85% ethanol (not in flex fuel cars)and the biggest differance is the exhaust smells way better.




I'm waiting to get pulled over and be given a Breathalyzer test, because you can sure smell that alcohol! The only thing I dislike about E85 is the different seasonal blends that means 15-30% crap gas depending on the calendar, wish I could buy E100 at the pump..

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: aduster340] #1058543
08/27/11 12:18 AM
08/27/11 12:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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ahy Offline
master
ahy  Offline
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IN
Its a good reason to run FI... some times 100% gas, sometimes 90% maybe some day 85%. FI can easily adjust.

... running E85 in an engine set up for 10% alcohol... that's another question. The different AF ratio is at the edge of or outside of the range of adjustment of a standard EFI system. Risky.

I don't really care for 10% ethanol gas for operational and economic reasons but If that's what is available, I'm happy to burn it. Good for the makers of Stabil also.

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: ahy] #1058544
08/27/11 01:09 PM
08/27/11 01:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
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I wonder if there is a DIFFERENCE in the octane level, between the "corn" type ethanol and the "sugar cane" type ethanol. Might be a bargaining issue for the U.S. if we decided to go with MORE of this "clean fuel" type technology in the racing world. Only problem is we don't produce
as much sugar cane in U.S. (save for Hawaii and "shared" provinces), compared to corn (grain).



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: goldduster318] #1058545
08/27/11 03:26 PM
08/27/11 03:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,041
michigan woods
imfixinmopars426 Offline
master
imfixinmopars426  Offline
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Posts: 4,041
michigan woods
Quote:

I used to live in an area that didn't have it...moved to an area that did.

What I noticed:
1) Fuel goes bad a lot faster...Use Sta-Bil if you don't drive much
2) Had to re-tune the carb a bit, especially the idle mixture screws and choke setting
3) Gas mileage is about 10-15% worse
4) The car floods very easily when shut off hot from fuel boil off.

The stuff is crap...it creates even more havoc with my vintage lawn equipment...within one year it made the 37 year old gas tank in my lawn mower fail at the seam.




couldnt have said it better! ITS CRAP!

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: imfixinmopars426] #1058546
08/27/11 05:30 PM
08/27/11 05:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
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Kalispell Mt.
I pulled a 96 stratus out of the woods the other day that had been sitting with 10% ethanol since 09 and the gas smelld new and the car started and ran perfect at the first touch of the key. Also my lawn mower started on the first pull this spring after sitting for 6 months with e-10 in the tank

Never touched the carb on my 68 cuda switching from e-0 to e-85, not even a idle mix or speed adjust and the car never missed a beat (thermoquad).

If your MPG dropped 10-15% something else is wrong, no way in hell that e-10 did that, I know it makes slightly less energy but if you lost 10% that means the ethanol did not burn at all, rum is ethanol and water and it burns so... something else is wrong with your car causeing your idleing problems and loss of MPG, you can't figure it out so blame it on the ethanol

Alcohol causes great cooling when it evaporates and will vapor lock less than gasoline. Gasoline has many different chemicals in it and they all vapoize at different levals, some of them boil much lower than ethanol. Also a news flash for you, cars had vapor lock issues long before ethanol was put in the gas, even the old leaded gas would vapor lock, it was a constant battle for 100 years till all the cars had EFI.

Ethanol is not anything like Methanol, all the symptoms people describe are Methanol problems not Ethanol.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HotRodDave] #1058547
08/27/11 05:48 PM
08/27/11 05:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,278
San Jose, California
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DennisH Offline
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Happy to hear that the ethanol saved the Stratus. I don't want it in the tank of my 69 Coronet. Anyway, it's subsidized. I don't expect others to help pay for my fuel.

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #1058548
08/27/11 07:49 PM
08/27/11 07:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 759
10,000 lakes and a swamp
aduster340 Offline
super street
aduster340  Offline
super street

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 759
10,000 lakes and a swamp
Quote:

I wonder if there is a DIFFERENCE in the octane level, between the "corn" type ethanol and the "sugar cane" type ethanol. Might be a bargaining issue for the U.S. if we decided to go with MORE of this "clean fuel" type technology in the racing world. Only problem is we don't produce
as much sugar cane in U.S. (save for Hawaii and "shared" provinces), compared to corn (grain).






They grow cane sugar in Texas, Florida and Louisiana also. Ethanol can be made from lots of things. POET is building plants in Iowa and South Dakota that uses corn stover which is the non-food stuff that gets spit out of the combine, stalks, cobs etc. Industrial hemp would be the ultimate answer, it doesn't need cultivation, herbicides or pesticides and grows on marginal land. But that will never happen.

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HotRodDave] #1058549
08/27/11 07:57 PM
08/27/11 07:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 759
10,000 lakes and a swamp
aduster340 Offline
super street
aduster340  Offline
super street

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 759
10,000 lakes and a swamp
Quote:

I pulled a 96 stratus out of the woods the other day that had been sitting with 10% ethanol since 09 and the gas smelld new and the car started and ran perfect at the first touch of the key.




Yeah I was a little worried about that (untreated ) E10 in my tank and my car had been sitting in the garage for 29 months. Old wives tales or urban myths?

Not sure how you got away with not jetting up or using bigger injectors for the E85, 30% is the general rule of thumb.

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: DennisH ] #1058550
08/28/11 10:45 AM
08/28/11 10:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 862
Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline
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Quote:

... Anyway, it's subsidized. I don't expect others to help pay for my fuel.




Non ethanol gas is subsidized, so is food, so is the cotton in clothes, etc.... Bad line. At least the ethanol subsidizing stays in the farmers hands (whether you agree with that or not is another post).


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: Moe] #1058551
08/28/11 01:54 PM
08/28/11 01:54 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 251
USA
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ramairthree Offline
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USA
My problems are:

it goes bad fast- it gets varnishy in a month or two like regular gas would take a year to do- just put a quarter gallon in a jug, and then check it in a few months

Yep, I get the flooding/boiling issues too

and, weirdly, in a Pontiac with a quadrajet, no matter what I do to adjust it, I have to sit it to get it warmed up. while an autolite in a Javelin and a eddy in a RR starts right up. flooding/boiling potential is worse in the autolite

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HotRodDave] #1058552
08/28/11 02:21 PM
08/28/11 02:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,845
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,845
Kirkland, Washington
Ethanol has a BTU rating of approx 76,000, Gasoline is approx 114,000.
Ethanol is chemically incapable (scientific fact) of performing as much work per unit of volume. In fact its proportionally less, and even worse in a vehicle not tuned for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: kilroy] #1058553
08/28/11 02:26 PM
08/28/11 02:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,845
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
Pacnorthcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

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Posts: 21,845
Kirkland, Washington
Quote:

Quote:

... Anyway, it's subsidized. I don't expect others to help pay for my fuel.




Non ethanol gas is subsidized, so is food, so is the cotton in clothes, etc.... Bad line. At least the ethanol subsidizing stays in the farmers hands (whether you agree with that or not is another post).




How is 'Non ethanol gas subsidized'???

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1058554
08/28/11 02:32 PM
08/28/11 02:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
Too Many Posts
Challenger 1  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

... Anyway, it's subsidized. I don't expect others to help pay for my fuel.




Non ethanol gas is subsidized, so is food, so is the cotton in clothes, etc.... Bad line. At least the ethanol subsidizing stays in the farmers hands (whether you agree with that or not is another post).




How is 'Non ethanol gas subsidized'???




exactly...how is it?

I think hotroddave grows corn...E10 is bad for everyone except the farmers and there suppliers. It sucks bad, E10. I could go on and on about the troubles it has caused. I sell gasoline for a living.

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: Challenger 1] #1058555
08/28/11 03:07 PM
08/28/11 03:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,452
Michigan
MarkZ Offline
Worthy
MarkZ  Offline
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Posts: 4,452
Michigan
I read through this entire post and I'm wondering if each different region's blend of seasonal gasoline in the US is the cause for some people's success stories, and others problem stories.

I personally have never had an issue with E10 sitting in the Fifth Avenue over the winter. Most years it'll sit for at least six months.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: Challenger 1] #1058556
08/28/11 03:25 PM
08/28/11 03:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 862
Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline
super stock
kilroy  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 862
Iowa State fan
Quote:



exactly...how is it?





Quote:

PROGRAM SUBSIDIES

Government support of US petroleum producers does not end with tax breaks. Program subsidies that support the extraction, production, and use of petroleum and petroleum fuel products total $38 to $114.6 billion each year. The largest portion of this total is federal, state, and local governments' $36 to $112 billion worth of spending on the transportation infrastructure, such as the construction, maintenance, and repair of roads and bridges. Other program subsidies include funding of research and development ($200 to $220 million), export financing subsidies ($308.5 to $311.9 million), support from the Army Corps of Engineers ($253.2 to $270 million), the Department of Interior's Oil Resources Management Programs ($97 to $227 million), and government expenditures on regulatory oversight, pollution cleanup, and liability costs ($1.1 to $1.6 billion).




http://www.progress.org/2003/energy22.htm

I dont know about hotrod dave, but Im not a farmer.

Last edited by kilroy; 08/28/11 07:21 PM.

1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: kilroy] #1058557
08/28/11 04:42 PM
08/28/11 04:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 266
Seattle Wa
PowerWagonDude Offline
enthusiast
PowerWagonDude  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 266
Seattle Wa
You guys should look at this site about E85
http://www.raceone85.com/

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: PowerWagonDude] #1058558
08/28/11 05:28 PM
08/28/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
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Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
I have not grown any corn (or any other crop of any sort)since I was 9 and all of those turned grey and you could not eat them

I don't really know a whole lot about all the politics about it, just a few semi scientific experiments of my own, I got tired of hearing all the hype from both sides and tried some stuff for my self and it was very eye opening All that is happeing in the engine is it is running lean(gasoline engines can run lean also but they tend to melt things unlike ethanol).

My theories as to why it seems to barely affect MPG in a non-flex fuel vehicle is the increased throttle angle required must be reduceing pumping losses and recovering some of the lost efficency. Also since alcohol has extra oxygen stuck to every molecule it is probably resulting in a more complete burn during the power stroke again gaining back some of the lost efficency, same principle as better atomization of gasoline, more is burned where it is usefull instead of the exhaust system.

I do wish that we would quit paying farmers NOT to grow stuff, quit paying oil companys to research stuff they should pay for themselfs, quit paying ethanol subsidies. I don't think either should get subsidies, no one subsedizes my buisness. If a company can not stand on their own than they should close up shop. Ethanol can stand on it's own just like in other countries and they should do it here with out government help


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: HotRodDave] #1058559
08/28/11 10:35 PM
08/28/11 10:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
I find it evaporates and hydrolocks easier. You solve a lot of problems by putting an electric pump back at the gas tank.

Re: Pump Gas w/ 10% Ethanol [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1058560
08/28/11 10:46 PM
08/28/11 10:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,278
San Jose, California
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DennisH Offline
Vacation
DennisH  Offline
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Posts: 5,278
San Jose, California
It's a solvent right? I don't want a solvent in my motor. Cheaper per gallon, less MPG's. Because other stuff is subsidized doesn't make it right. That's a weak liberal arguement. If he does this, then I can...

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