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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1056929
08/22/11 09:43 AM
08/22/11 09:43 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
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I was really hoping to hear from GremlinSteve on this thread. Seems right up his alley.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1056930
08/22/11 12:12 PM
08/22/11 12:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
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the MP 392 carb crate engine made 620 back in 2007.
It was a std. bore 6.1 with a 3.795 stroker crank and CNC 6.1 heads.
It had the predecessor to the drag pak manifold (same intake but without injector holes), 10.3:1, .584/.552 lift cam, and that was about it. It made 620 with an 870 street avenger carb.
Then two things happened:
1. Rated HP was downgraded to 540 to make the 525HP EFI version more appealiing
2. It was never pictured in any marketing materials, and was only shown at trade shows
...and that pretty much killed it....
Clone it, and you pretty much got it.
basically 550 to 600 lift, mid 9s to 10.5:1 (more would be better), try to get at least around 400CI, the good intake manifold, and....I am not going to debate which cylinder head to use because the truth is...ANY of them will work.
Just get a core engine that does not have VCT/VVT, and don't worry too much about what heads it has.
If you have 5.7 heads, get them ported and bigger valves put in. Same with 6.1 heads. Apache heads would probably do it without porting but the intake isn't going to match up very well, so you end up working on the intake instead of the heads.
If anything, I feel the combo would slightly favor Eagle heads because of the tiny chambers/alcohol/easier to make compression, and that they should match the 6.1 dp intake fairly well also.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1056931
08/22/11 12:54 PM
08/22/11 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
the MP 392 carb crate engine made 620 back in 2007.
It was a std. bore 6.1 with a 3.795 stroker crank and CNC 6.1 heads.
It had the predecessor to the drag pak manifold (same intake but without injector holes), 10.3:1, .584/.552 lift cam, and that was about it. It made 620 with an 870 street avenger carb.
Then two things happened:
1. Rated HP was downgraded to 540 to make the 525HP EFI version more appealiing
2. It was never pictured in any marketing materials, and was only shown at trade shows
...and that pretty much killed it....
Clone it, and you pretty much got it.
basically 550 to 600 lift, mid 9s to 10.5:1 (more would be better), try to get at least around 400CI, the good intake manifold, and....I am not going to debate which cylinder head to use because the truth is...ANY of them will work.
Just get a core engine that does not have VCT/VVT, and don't worry too much about what heads it has.
If you have 5.7 heads, get them ported and bigger valves put in. Same with 6.1 heads. Apache heads would probably do it without porting but the intake isn't going to match up very well, so you end up working on the intake instead of the heads.
If anything, I feel the combo would slightly favor Eagle heads because of the tiny chambers/alcohol/easier to make compression, and that they should match the 6.1 dp intake fairly well also.
Good info 
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: MattW]
#1056932
08/22/11 01:06 PM
08/22/11 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
the MP 392 carb crate engine made 620 back in 2007.
It was a std. bore 6.1 with a 3.795 stroker crank and CNC 6.1 heads.
It had the predecessor to the drag pak manifold (same intake but without injector holes), 10.3:1, .584/.552 lift cam, and that was about it. It made 620 with an 870 street avenger carb.
Then two things happened:
1. Rated HP was downgraded to 540 to make the 525HP EFI version more appealiing
2. It was never pictured in any marketing materials, and was only shown at trade shows
...and that pretty much killed it....
Clone it, and you pretty much got it.
basically 550 to 600 lift, mid 9s to 10.5:1 (more would be better), try to get at least around 400CI, the good intake manifold, and....I am not going to debate which cylinder head to use because the truth is...ANY of them will work.
Just get a core engine that does not have VCT/VVT, and don't worry too much about what heads it has.
If you have 5.7 heads, get them ported and bigger valves put in. Same with 6.1 heads. Apache heads would probably do it without porting but the intake isn't going to match up very well, so you end up working on the intake instead of the heads.
If anything, I feel the combo would slightly favor Eagle heads because of the tiny chambers/alcohol/easier to make compression, and that they should match the 6.1 dp intake fairly well also.
Good info
ZIPPY is it possible to fab a aluminum spacer for the VCT VVT cam bore to use the earlier cam?
The 09 to present blocks are reinforced and stronger. Thanks again for your info. Matt
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1056933
08/22/11 02:16 PM
08/22/11 02:16 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
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Irun5snd8th
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So are you saying that these standard stroker short blocks that places are selling with some worked Eagle heads can get you to 650?
So what about ignition? Does MSD make a box that just controls the coils? Obviously I have to get a set of headers made but I have one of Bob's front ends so that should not be an issue. Then my only issue would be mating my Glide to it, but I have the bell so it would just be a flywheel issue at that point.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1056934
08/22/11 02:45 PM
08/22/11 02:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!
340RICK
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Only problem with some of the short blocks for sale is they are desinged for guys with new style cars and factory EFI You could do alot better by upping the compression and running a drag pack type camshaft. As far as the ignition goes forget the dist i dont know why you would want to go that route prolly would end up costin more. The factory valvecovers and coil packs work great and are cheap. The MSD setup is around 485-500 bucks My motor is done just waiting on Charlies oil pan that will hopefully be done tomorrow. I would seriously look for a junkyard motor Eric. That way you will have all the covers bolts sensors etc....
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 340RICK]
#1056935
08/22/11 02:55 PM
08/22/11 02:55 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
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Good points Rick. I was thinking closer to 12:1 like my current engine is. How cheap can a guy pick these up in a junk yard typically? Or a better question is what is the current market value? Do we just look for a 5.7 out of 04-08 truck?
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 2734bbl]
#1056937
08/22/11 05:29 PM
08/22/11 05:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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S.E. Michigan
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Quote:
How was the horepower downgraded? Was just done on paperwork or did they change parts in the motors? If so what was changed and can those parts be bought to build a clone?
The 525HP, FI 392 really did make 525HP.
It had a stock 6.1 intake.
The "540HP" carbureted 392 really made 610-620.
However, it was marketed at 540....
Only difference between it, and the FI version was the intake and carb.
The carb engine with the big intake was showed off at the big trade shows, but the average guy looking in the mp catalog like me, never saw it. Since almost nobody knew what it was, almost nobody bought it.
Later, that same intake had injector bosses added, and became the drag pak manifold. To clone it, a person would need to take a drag pak manifold and plug the injector holes like STEFF did on his.
Quote:
How cheap can a guy pick these up in a junk yard typically? Or a better question is what is the current market value? Do we just look for a 5.7 out of 04-08 truck?
Around here, if you wait around a bit you can find a core motor on craigslist for $500 to $750. Same with ebay. Yep, for 5.7s you want an '08 or earlier (down to 2003). For 6.1s, any year will do. With either one, stroke it to around 400ci (or larger), and go ahead with the 12:1 compression (or more) like you were thinking. It'll work great.
On ignition, once the wiring harness is included, the MSD setup is about $600.
Alot of people, have put engineering effort into a timing cover/distributor setup. It's not cheap to do, because either a new timing cover has to be tooled up, or you take a stock timing cover and hack it/weld it.
My question is: if (hypothetically!!!) a distributor setup for Gen 3 was readily available....BUT it ended up costing a couple hundred more than the MSD setup...would anyone buy it?
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1056938
08/22/11 05:54 PM
08/22/11 05:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
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Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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what are cam specs on the drag pack motors? do they have to stay "in spec" or can they slam anything they want in the engine?
where do these heads stall at?
is everyone running a behive spring? or doing something fancy with valves/springs and retainers?
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1056939
08/22/11 06:01 PM
08/22/11 06:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
2734bbl
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Tulsa oklahoma USA
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Wow, that's a big difference with just an induction change.I guess the EFI intake is restrictive? or was it just detuned with the fuel/spark mapping to help with street manners? I would think a guy could start with a core 5.7L and build it up and come in under a 392 crate motor price tag pretty easy. Thanks for the info Zippy 
Last edited by 2734bbl; 08/22/11 06:05 PM.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: hemidup]
#1056941
08/22/11 08:13 PM
08/22/11 08:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,410
Belpre,Ohio
CHAPPER
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Belpre,Ohio
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I am reading,,watching,, this thread quite interested. All the theories and speculations sound good. Why can't I buy a Dragpac style intake from Mopar Performance,,they say 'back ordered',,,  I can't understand why,,when people are wanting to buy the parts they advertise are available,,,that when the money is in their face,,NO parts are available... I will continue to watch,,I have an "experimental" engine on the stand now,,if it was a brand 'X' engine, I would have all kinds of parts and advise available, 
If you like drag racing, support your local track.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: j.mcconnell]
#1056944
08/22/11 08:54 PM
08/22/11 08:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,410
Belpre,Ohio
CHAPPER
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 I don't think so,,, no heads, needs crank,,etc. 
If you like drag racing, support your local track.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: CHAPPER]
#1056945
08/22/11 09:00 PM
08/22/11 09:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!
340RICK
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Its sad but true the only real hold up or even for that matter expenisve piece is the intake manifold. Other than the 1000.00 price tag for a DP Intake the rest of the stuff is cheaper than small block parts. You can go to dodge dealer and buy every part for a 3G Hemi cheap. Like the MOPAR MLS head gaskets are 45.00 bucks Intake gaskets are like 20.00 bucks. If you have a buddy that works at your local dodge dealer you are in. I bought every part for my 6.1/426 stroker new from the dodge dealer except for my 6.1 heads. I mean rockers, block, gaskets, oil pumps, front covers, one piece rear main etc. You can look I think its www.wholesalemopar.com or something like that, and look at the parts and prices.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 340RICK]
#1056946
08/22/11 09:06 PM
08/22/11 09:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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340rick, would you mind sharing the specs on your build? what do you expect HP wise?
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1056947
08/22/11 09:20 PM
08/22/11 09:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!
340RICK
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Here is a quick run down 6.1 block 4.065 I bought the Manley rotating kit 4.050 stroke 48lb crank Manley H beams 2.00" x 6.125 .927 pin manley flat tops 11.5 to 1 LSM cam .400 LS lobe(.640 ) 266/272 @.050 114 LSA hydraulic roller Manton 3/8 pushrods ATI dampner Charlies 8QT oil pan CNC ported 6.1 heads from MCH Pac 1219 beehives 150/400 open Sharadon rocker shaft tie bars and collars Drag Pack intake Fast EFI thats most of it off the top of my head Dont really know what kinda power its gonna make. Drag Pack Motors make around 625 HP or more at 370" with unported heads. So who knows what mines gonna make. But I will take all I can get. My goal when I talked to Jeff at Modern was to make all the power I could and stay with pump gas and a hyd roller cam. Gotta be street friendly
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