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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Get-X]
#1057011
09/09/11 10:00 PM
09/09/11 10:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Eric..
first off i have not read this entire post. so it may have beem mentioned already... Tony Bischoff at BES racing ingines in sunman indiana is your man. he DOMINATED the 2010 engine masters with the type of engine you are looking for, he has worked with MANY venders on parts and R&D. HE HAS THE OIL PROBLEM FIGURED OUT and nobody can match is ability to design a cam for these engines,his reputation speaks for itself. he is the best PERIOD....  
QFT! BES engines make the power no matter what engine it is they build.
X2
He has something that is working for him.
Matt
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: LA360]
#1057013
09/09/11 11:22 PM
09/09/11 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,493
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,493
Kalispell Mt.
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Was ther ever a build-up article about the BES hemi that won the contest?
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: mcat4321]
#1057016
09/10/11 02:56 PM
09/10/11 02:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 833
MN
hemidup
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 833
MN
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The BES engine also used the older 5.7 Hemi heads. Take a look at the picture of the chamber and you'll see the quench pads. 5.7 Eagle heads don't have those. Also with our dyno testing our older 5.7 ported head made 30 hp/20 tq more than our ported 6.1's. Too many guy's get lost about cfm flow numbers and forget about port velocity.
I also agree with Zippy about CCV. I just picked up a set of those very rare 6.1 aluminum valve covers and plan to tig up some breathers on them. Just trying to figure out a design to put a baffle in them. I'm too cheap to buy the aftermarket taller one's. lol
Also, if there were oiling issues with the way these Gen III Hemi's are oiled, you would see the # 7/8 rods being taken out. Most failures are with the #5/6 and I have only seen 1 failure with the #3/4 and that was on Teuton's last weekend. I have my own theories as to why the center rod bearings are affected and after some more research, hopefully I can post up the fact's.
Jerry Williams.
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: mcat4321]
#1057017
09/10/11 04:18 PM
09/10/11 04:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
Quote:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1103phr_bes_417ci_gen_iii_hemi/index.html
i just read the article...
can you imagine the power he would have made if he had got the cam where he wanted it..
i personally know Tony, he has been building my families engines for years. i know most all employees past and present. the whole crew are deffinately the heavy hitters in the gen.III field
and you WILL NOT get better customer service anywhere
The problem is the 6500 rpm shutoff for emc. If that was changed to 7000rpm(and no valvetrain/oiling issues pop up) with some tweaking I'd think the HP would pick up nicely. I wonder why I haven't found any EMC competitors running the needed(for a wide powerband!LOL) spread LSA'S. I don't need an answer to that question,just 
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: hemidup]
#1057019
09/10/11 07:40 PM
09/10/11 07:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1103phr_bes_417ci_gen_iii_hemi/index.html
i just read the article...
can you imagine the power he would have made if he had got the cam where he wanted it..
i personally know Tony, he has been building my families engines for years. i know most all employees past and present. the whole crew are deffinately the heavy hitters in the gen.III field
and you WILL NOT get better customer service anywhere
The problem is the 6500 rpm shutoff for emc. If that was changed to 7000rpm(and no valvetrain/oiling issues pop up) with some tweaking I'd think the HP would pick up nicely. I wonder why I haven't found any EMC competitors running the needed(for a wide powerband!LOL) spread LSA'S. I don't need an answer to that question,just
Look closely at the Jessel lifter. They drilled a hole in the side of the lifter and pumped it up through the lifter galley instead of using the factory top oiling system through the rockershaft. Luckily they put a 6500 rpm limit during the engine competition cause most of us Mopar nut's know that a conventional hydralic lifter is done at 5800 rpm. I don't think the Jessel system could withstand 8500 rpm.
Comments are welcomed.
Are the lifters used by BES in this build hyd or solid/hybrid lifters? I never suggested 8500rpm,but think the reason that combo only hit 700hp is because it was built for that,not that it couldn't pick up above 6500rpm IF the valvetrain works there. It would likely require a new camshaft to raise the peak hp rpm,but that goes with the territory as I'd think the heads,induction,etc are not done @6500rpm. Does that make sense?
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: goldmember]
#1057020
09/10/11 08:07 PM
09/10/11 08:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,187
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,187
Melbourne , Australia
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I think that engines peak power was over the 6500 limit, comments made in the article refer to wanting to run a lobe separation narrower than the 108 used, but no cores are readily available. "Unfortunately, for the contest, the tightest lobe separation cam core we could get was 108. We would have liked to get a cam even tighter than that, so we only tried one cam. I suspect there could be more score there. To make a cam like we wanted, we would have had to buy a core out of round stock, and it's about a six-week wait period and about a thousand dollars." BES said Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1103phr_bes_417ci_gen_iii_hemi/viewall.html#ixzz1Xb8f2fjx
Last edited by LA360; 09/10/11 08:10 PM.
Alan Jones
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: hemidup]
#1057023
09/10/11 08:54 PM
09/10/11 08:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
The BES engine also used the older 5.7 Hemi heads. Take a look at the picture of the chamber and you'll see the quench pads. 5.7 Eagle heads don't have those. Also with our dyno testing our older 5.7 ported head made 30 hp/20 tq more than our ported 6.1's. Too many guy's get lost about cfm flow numbers and forget about port velocity.
I also agree with Zippy about CCV. I just picked up a set of those very rare 6.1 aluminum valve covers and plan to tig up some breathers on them. Just trying to figure out a design to put a baffle in them. I'm too cheap to buy the aftermarket taller one's. lol
Also, if there were oiling issues with the way these Gen III Hemi's are oiled, you would see the # 7/8 rods being taken out. Most failures are with the #5/6 and I have only seen 1 failure with the #3/4 and that was on Teuton's last weekend. I have my own theories as to why the center rod bearings are affected and after some more research, hopefully I can post up the fact's.
I could be wrong but the article shows a 5.7 eagle chamber head and they stated a late model head 
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: hemidup]
#1057027
09/10/11 11:23 PM
09/10/11 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,493
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,493
Kalispell Mt.
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I have two sets of 5.7 heads 03 and 04 and both have the open chamber heads-not like the ones in your pic or the magazine article, the Eagles are the "late model" and "closed chamber" head unless you mill your own. That brings a couple question to my mind, how much can you safely mill the early heads? Can you mill them to closed? I guess you can if you had them in 06 Lastly I know the Eagle head is supposed to bump an early 5.7 close to 12 to one, are they just a bolt on or do they nee something changed to do that? BTW The apatche head on the 392 is closed chamber and the 6.1 heads are open chamber.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Design me a 3G Hemi bracket engine
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1057028
09/11/11 03:49 AM
09/11/11 03:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 833
MN
hemidup
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 833
MN
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The 5.7 heads that I have are a one off design. I welded up the chamber's and then milled them .025". Custom Ferrea 2.08" int/1.62 valve's with .308" valve stem diameter, custom bronze valve guides and hand ported personally. Exhaust to intake ratio's at mid lift are in the mid to upper 70's with port velocities at 345 fps. Won't see those type of #'s with either the 6.1, Eagle or Apache head's ported or not. BES must have came up with the same conclusion that I had.
Last edited by hemidup; 09/11/11 03:58 AM.
Jerry Williams.
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