Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1035616
07/23/11 08:38 AM
07/23/11 08:38 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112 LONG ISLAND
fishy340
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
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I have the BADDEST big-block on my street............PERIOD.
you have a very impressive bigblock for sure
I said "my street" cos there`s always someone around the corner who`s faster. This topic is good for both sides big and small blocks guys and gals alike as for me; I`d rather have the big block torque in a street/strip car and keep the r`s down than have a small block high revving monster that taxes even the best of parts.
thats your opinion now here's mine dont take offense you have a big block that runs on race gas? i'll be honest here ur car runs 9.90's thats slow..what were sayin here is u dont need a bb to run 10'ooozzzz u can do it pretty easy and have ur car 140lbs lighter
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Sport440]
#1035617
07/23/11 01:17 PM
07/23/11 01:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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I agree the big block torque curve will be broader, but I said with gear and converter to match the combo's.
With that said a big block with a 275/60/15 tire with 3.23 shifted at 6000 rpm would fall back to 3500 in second, then back to 6000 and fall back to 4000 in drive. While a small block with the same tire and with 4.10 shifted at 7500 would fall back to 4500 in second and back to 7500 then fall to 5200 in drive. That small block would have 500rpm more pull in 1st-2nd shift and 300rpm more pull in 2nd-drive thats 800 rpm more total. This is figured on both cars with a 727 and stock gear ratio's. This would also be with the converter dead locked which we know don't happen, but still more useable rpm from the small block.
You stated matched optimized combos between the two. A 500 HP BB is not optimized with a 3.23 gear. Further, it wouldnt fall back to 3500 rpm in second with the right vert.
The original question, 500 HP BB 440 vs 500 HP SB 360 in a 3000# car. In this case alone, at this level of performance, the broader torque range of the BB,s extra stroke should win.
The argument of Mechanical advantage with more gear has merit. But you can overgear IMO, Ive found that with my 500HP combo, it likes to dwell a little in first gear with the verts torque multiplications aspects.
Ive tested 3 gears with the same HP. RPM and gear multiplication isnt always the fastest way to the stripe at these 500 hp levels.
Pro stocks 500CI and 10,000 rpm,s sure different story.
A 500hp BB has torque around 3000-3800 rpms. Would need traction aids to hook well in a #3000lb car. A 500hp SB has torque around 4000-4500 rpms. Needs traction aids also, but a bit EASIER to hook in a #3000lb car, due to it's higher peak, not wider. Wider or broader torque band are great for slightly heavier cars, but at #3000lbs, so much torque is there down low, tires are overwhelmed and they spin. During the run, things may or DO get "close" midtrack, but to the finish it's usually a "leg" race, with the one who has the higher rev potential winning.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#1035618
07/23/11 01:46 PM
07/23/11 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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I agree the big block torque curve will be broader, but I said with gear and converter to match the combo's.
With that said a big block with a 275/60/15 tire with 3.23 shifted at 6000 rpm would fall back to 3500 in second, then back to 6000 and fall back to 4000 in drive. While a small block with the same tire and with 4.10 shifted at 7500 would fall back to 4500 in second and back to 7500 then fall to 5200 in drive. That small block would have 500rpm more pull in 1st-2nd shift and 300rpm more pull in 2nd-drive thats 800 rpm more total. This is figured on both cars with a 727 and stock gear ratio's. This would also be with the converter dead locked which we know don't happen, but still more useable rpm from the small block.
You stated matched optimized combos between the two. A 500 HP BB is not optimized with a 3.23 gear. Further, it wouldnt fall back to 3500 rpm in second with the right vert.
The original question, 500 HP BB 440 vs 500 HP SB 360 in a 3000# car. In this case alone, at this level of performance, the broader torque range of the BB,s extra stroke should win.
The argument of Mechanical advantage with more gear has merit. But you can overgear IMO, Ive found that with my 500HP combo, it likes to dwell a little in first gear with the verts torque multiplications aspects.
Ive tested 3 gears with the same HP. RPM and gear multiplication isnt always the fastest way to the stripe at these 500 hp levels.
Pro stocks 500CI and 10,000 rpm,s sure different story.
A 500hp BB has torque around 3000-3800 rpms. Would need traction aids to hook well in a #3000lb car. A 500hp SB has torque around 4000-4500 rpms. Needs traction aids also, but a bit EASIER to hook in a #3000lb car, due to it's higher peak, not wider. Wider or broader torque band are great for slightly heavier cars, but at #3000lbs, so much torque is there down low, tires are overwhelmed and they spin. During the run, things may or DO get "close" midtrack, but to the finish it's usually a "leg" race, with the one who has the higher rev potential winning.
not a lot of traction need to hook w/ 500hp. My old 67 coronet cut 1.65 60 foot and ran 12.0's @114 on factory HP springs and 28.5X10.5's. The new car should be in the high 1.50's on stock HD springs and 275/60/15's. Nothing fancy needed and I'm over 500. buddy's old 69 coronet ran high tens on his old whooped 318 rear leaf springs and traction bars. That's another thing, to get a decent tire on an a-body you have to start cutting.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: w7smallblock]
#1035619
07/23/11 01:54 PM
07/23/11 01:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454 Glendora Ca.
Just-a-dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
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I have been watching this post for a while and have to say. Walk away from the keyboard and race your cars. By the way my smallblock thinks it's a big block.
"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035621
07/23/11 02:01 PM
07/23/11 02:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873
Chicken coop
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That's another thing, to get a decent tire on an a-body you have to start cutting.
Not on a Duster you don't. I have 275/60/15 drag radials on 15X8 rims with 4.5" backspacing and they fit perfectly with no rubbing.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1035622
07/23/11 02:05 PM
07/23/11 02:05 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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That's another thing, to get a decent tire on an a-body you have to start cutting.
Not on a Duster you don't. I have 275/60/15 drag radials on 15X8 rims with 4.5" backspacing and they fit perfectly with no rubbing.
Yeah, but a Duster is just a Nova rear with a Valiant front clip..
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Re: big block VS small block
#1035625
07/23/11 03:25 PM
07/23/11 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 469 Tennessee
steeldust
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 469
Tennessee
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That's another thing, to get a decent tire on an a-body you have to start cutting.
Not on a Duster you don't. I have 275/60/15 drag radials on 15X8 rims with 4.5" backspacing and they fit perfectly with no rubbing.
Yeah, but a Duster is just a Nova rear with a Valiant front clip..
My DUSTER is not a NNOVEE i can`t say it it`s a MOPAR please tail me you are a MOPAR guy and you joking because that hurts but cubic inchs makes horse power ..THANKS
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#1035627
07/23/11 04:11 PM
07/23/11 04:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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A 500hp BB has torque around 3000-3800 rpms. Would need traction aids to hook well in a #3000lb car. A 500hp SB has torque around 4000-4500 rpms. Needs traction aids also, but a bit EASIER to hook in a #3000lb car, due to it's higher peak, not wider. Wider or broader torque band are great for slightly heavier cars, but at #3000lbs, so much torque is there down low, tires are overwhelmed and they spin. During the run, things may or DO get "close" midtrack, but to the finish it's usually a "leg" race, with the one who has the higher rev potential winning.
The 248* cam I was using with a 440 BB, peak torque fell around 4500 RPM, peak HP around 5750. It was around 500 to 520 HP.
Im not sure where the torque and HP peaks would fall on a same HP 360 SB
It was hard to hook up at first but with tricks of the trade 1.43,s are effortless now.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Sport440]
#1035632
07/23/11 09:16 PM
07/23/11 09:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 320 PA
w7smallblock
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 320
PA
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Quote:
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I agree the big block torque curve will be broader, but I said with gear and converter to match the combo's.
With that said a big block with a 275/60/15 tire with 3.23 shifted at 6000 rpm would fall back to 3500 in second, then back to 6000 and fall back to 4000 in drive. While a small block with the same tire and with 4.10 shifted at 7500 would fall back to 4500 in second and back to 7500 then fall to 5200 in drive. That small block would have 500rpm more pull in 1st-2nd shift and 300rpm more pull in 2nd-drive thats 800 rpm more total. This is figured on both cars with a 727 and stock gear ratio's. This would also be with the converter dead locked which we know don't happen, but still more useable rpm from the small block.
You stated matched optimized combos between the two. A 500 HP BB is not optimized with a 3.23 gear. Further, it wouldnt fall back to 3500 rpm in second with the right vert.
The original question, 500 HP BB 440 vs 500 HP SB 360 in a 3000# car. In this case alone, at this level of performance, the broader torque range of the BB,s extra stroke should win.
The argument of Mechanical advantage with more gear has merit. But you can overgear IMO, Ive found that with my 500HP combo, it likes to dwell a little in first gear with the verts torque multiplications aspects.
Ive tested 3 gears with the same HP. RPM and gear multiplication isnt always the fastest way to the stripe at these 500 hp levels.
Pro stocks 500CI and 10,000 rpm,s sure different story.
Sport 440 you need to read what my post stated not what you think it said. I never said 500 bb would be optimized with 3.23 nor would the small block with 4.10. I was just showing what .83 in gear ratio would do between the two combo's. You also said it wouldn't fall back to 3500 with the right converter and I stated that would be with the converter dead locked (just as an example) which never happens.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Sport440]
#1035633
07/23/11 09:31 PM
07/23/11 09:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
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A 500hp BB has torque around 3000-3800 rpms. Would need traction aids to hook well in a #3000lb car. A 500hp SB has torque around 4000-4500 rpms. Needs traction aids also, but a bit EASIER to hook in a #3000lb car, due to it's higher peak, not wider. Wider or broader torque band are great for slightly heavier cars, but at #3000lbs, so much torque is there down low, tires are overwhelmed and they spin. During the run, things may or DO get "close" midtrack, but to the finish it's usually a "leg" race, with the one who has the higher rev potential winning.
The 248* cam I was using with a 440 BB, peak torque fell around 4500 RPM, peak HP around 5750. It was around 500 to 520 HP.
Im not sure where the torque and HP peaks would fall on a same HP 360 SB
It was hard to hook up at first but with tricks of the trade 1.43,s are effortless now.
Don't know the weight of your car, but there is an abundance of torque starting above 2.5K. Did the right things to it!! In a 360, torque peak may be a tad higher than the 440 with the same cam in it. Is the 248* a solid cam?
Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 07/23/11 09:33 PM.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035634
07/23/11 09:34 PM
07/23/11 09:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 320 PA
w7smallblock
OP
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 320
PA
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It's amazing that in 2011, people still don't understand important things, like "shift recovery" and "useable rpm".
It has nothing to do with....."my big block is better than your small block, or vice versa.
Pity, I tell ya.
You can talk to some people till your blue in the face and in the end all you got was blue in the face If they don't get it by now 2011 they will never get it and thats why most are still stuck thinking it's the 1970's with .590 cams and TRW pistons. If the last statement offends you then you are who I'm talking about.
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