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several questions about 451 parts and driveability
#1027789
07/07/11 06:04 PM
07/07/11 06:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
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My project is suddenly suffering a direction change
I have... 452 heads (working on porting and large valves ), 280/474 MP cam, 175K MP converter, stock HP exhaust, performer intake, FBO ignition, MP dist, 2.5" exhaust with SS flowmonster mufflers ( similar to magnas ).
will keep 400 rods.
was to build a 400 with 383 forged crank and KB240s, but SUDDENLY and by mistake the crank was a 440 forged. so now thinking on a 451, but ON THE CHEAPEST as posible, so KB is my option
KB215 are on mind due the lower CR with stock not milled 452 heads ( iron )
CAR IS FOR TOTALLY STREET USE. will keep the A/C.
Opinions about KB215s and complete DRIVEABILITY assembly... It's nice some noticeable iddling, but want to keep a streeteable 800 rpms at iddle not excesively "jumpy", just noticeable, and safe to run the AC once turned on.
is that posible and real ? or Am I getting into troubles and dreaming because is unreal to get a nice and soft iddling from the stroke I'm trying to build ?
thanks...
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: Carsavior]
#1027793
07/07/11 11:46 PM
07/07/11 11:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
joedust451
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
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Quote:
I built mine with 440 Manley rods and Ross pistons- they have them ready-made. Cut the mains to 400 std size and trim .120 off the counterweights. I did that and the shop that balanced it put two small holes in the crank- said I coulda drove it like it was, it was that close. I've had mine since 02, and love it!
This is how i did up my 451 useing 440 rods & ross pistons & 440 steel crank, had .120" cut off the counterweights, this makes the best power this way, lighter pistons & crank, hardly needed anything to balance it out, Compression came in at 9.73 with 92cc 906s & a .039" gasket, That 274H cam will be VERY mild but with exhaust manifolds & a small stall & little gear should work good, I ran the 284H with a 11" 3000 stall & it pulled 1.57 60ft. times with 4.10 gears, thats how much torque it produced, M1 single & a 750dp.
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: 2734bbl]
#1027795
07/08/11 09:44 AM
07/08/11 09:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,326
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,326
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
What Ross piston are you guys using for quench with a 452/906 head?
There isn't a quench dome ross piston unless it's a CUSTOM .
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: JohnRR]
#1027796
07/08/11 09:49 AM
07/08/11 09:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
2734bbl
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
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I just looked at the Ross website as saw that.
So flat top with open chamber? How does this work? Do you mill the head or what?
Last edited by 2734bbl; 07/08/11 09:50 AM.
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1027798
07/08/11 03:32 PM
07/08/11 03:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
joedust451
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
|
Quote:
My project is suddenly suffering a direction change
I have... 452 heads (working on porting and large valves ), 280/474 MP cam, 175K MP converter, stock HP exhaust, performer intake, FBO ignition, MP dist, 2.5" exhaust with SS flowmonster mufflers ( similar to magnas ).
will keep 400 rods.
was to build a 400 with 383 forged crank and KB240s, but SUDDENLY and by mistake the crank was a 440 forged. so now thinking on a 451, but ON THE CHEAPEST as posible, so KB is my option
KB215 are on mind due the lower CR with stock not milled 452 heads ( iron )
CAR IS FOR TOTALLY STREET USE. will keep the A/C.
Opinions about KB215s and complete DRIVEABILITY assembly... It's nice some noticeable iddling, but want to keep a streeteable 800 rpms at iddle not excesively "jumpy", just noticeable, and safe to run the AC once turned on.
is that posible and real ? or Am I getting into troubles and dreaming because is unreal to get a nice and soft iddling from the stroke I'm trying to build ?
thanks...
I'm sure it'll be fine if those are the pistons that'll work with the 400 rods, its just that "most" build them with the ross/diamond FTs & use the 440 rods & turn the counterweights down, I know your looking on the cheap, but how cheap is cheap  , I only had a grand total of 3600.00 in my 451, & it was quit mild with the XE284H, The cam you have is mild & should be fine.
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: 2734bbl]
#1027799
07/08/11 03:36 PM
07/08/11 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,326
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,326
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
I just looked at the Ross website as saw that.
So flat top with open chamber? How does this work? Do you mill the head or what?
It'll work fine , just no quench unless you use a closed chamber head or mill the bleep out to the heads , but that will take away piston to valve clearance and raise your compression.
Quench is overrated , I seen it posted on the internet so it must be true .
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1027800
07/08/11 03:38 PM
07/08/11 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,326
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,326
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
all coments are nice and welcomed  , but wondering.... Is there something more to say about what I'm asking ? 
what's more to say other than your cam and convertor choice could be better . the engine you are building is nothing more than a .035 over 440 wit ha short rod , nothing special or exotic .
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: JohnRR]
#1027802
07/08/11 04:19 PM
07/08/11 04:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
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Quote:
Quote:
all coments are nice and welcomed , but wondering.... Is there something more to say about what I'm asking ?
what's more to say other than your cam and convertor choice could be better . the engine you are building is nothing more than a .035 over 440 wit ha short rod , nothing special or exotic .
but with more than a stock 440 CR 
actually thats something nice, because I'm searching for something like a sleeper 400 , with a slightly funny iddle but hard to notice, and safe for the A/C
cam and convertor... actually I know maybe there are more aftermarket parts what maybe will suit better, but initially I wanted to build the engine with the more MP parts as posible
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1027803
07/08/11 06:09 PM
07/08/11 06:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
joedust451
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
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How far do those KBs sit below deck with a 400 rod? If there not too low you'll still be good, Say if there around .060" below you'll be around 9.1-9.2 with un-milled 452s, Thats a good ratio for pump premium, Have you checked into this? If you want a dosile style cam, The XE268H should work great with AC, little gear & stall, The XE274H will still work VG (of coarse a bit better) even with what you have, but it'll have a "slight" rump, Just shoot for at least a true 9.1 so it'll have VG torque, Myself on such a mild build, i'd pass on the RPM & just run a Perf., shift it out at 5500 & smoke the *hit out of the tires all the way down the block  .  Just looked up those pistons  , I'm not real familiar about the ending stroke useing a 400 rod & 440 crank, Does it still come out too 3.75 ?? If so, with a 90cc head you'll be at 10.4, that will not work with pump premium, plus its way too much cranking pressure with a smaller cam like your wanting. http://kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=32This would be a better choice if the stroke is 3.75, I ran these in a 446 & on pump premium. These are basically the height of a six pack piston. http://kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=30Heres another option, you can milled the heads too 85-87cc & be over 9.1 http://kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=26
Last edited by joedust451; 07/08/11 06:29 PM.
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: joedust451]
#1027805
07/08/11 06:31 PM
07/08/11 06:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
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440 rods are AT THIS MOMENT not an option.
but now, another question... how if 10-10.5 CR compromises the pump gas option, if I have seen ppl posting about their 10 CR engines being built all around, and everybody says they are gas pump friendly ?
BTW, we use here 91 and 95 unleaded gas
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1027806
07/08/11 06:32 PM
07/08/11 06:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
joedust451
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
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Quote:
Quote:
How far do those KBs sit below deck with a 400 rod? If there not too low you'll still be good, Say if there around .060" below you'll be around 9.1-9.2 with un-milled 452s
actually dunno, KB doesn't say that, just says 10.4 with 90 cc and .030
Like I said, wayyyy too much compression for what you want, you will not be happy rattle-rattle-rattle  You'd need a cam with at lkeast 250s dur. @50 & alot of overlap to bleed off pressure.
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1027807
07/08/11 07:01 PM
07/08/11 07:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
joedust451
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
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Quote:
but now, another question... how if 10-10.5 CR compromises the pump gas option, if I have seen ppl posting about their 10 CR engines being built all around, and everybody says they are gas pump friendly ?
BTW, we use here 91 and 95 unleaded gas
Most likely there guessing on that do to the misconception, The gas today is CRAP this we know, & you will not see any perf. gains from a true 9.7.1 too 10.4.1 trust me, plus you risk the chance of detination, is that risk worth it, thats your call, I've done up a few of these 440s & with a true 9.7 your at risk especially with a small cam, even on premium 93, basically on the ragged edge. My 451 had a true 9.73 & it was fine on 93 as long as i didn't run it hard or ran the timing down a bit & set a conservative curve (this was with the XE284H) 185-190 cronking pressure, So i ran a small mix 75/25 of 93/110, Unless your running Aluminum heads, you need to be careful, try not to exceed 160-165 psi, don't risk it for a gain you will not see, a true 9.6-9.7 446 will be a total torque monster & I will put my word on that, This is the True compression ratios of a factory 440 with open chsmbered 90-92cc heads.
early yrs. 68-71 8.6-8.7 standard reg. fuel
Six pack. 9.6-9.7.1 Premium only
Later smoggers 7.6-7.8.1 Piss an option 
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Re: several questions about 451 parts and driveability
[Re: joedust451]
#1027808
07/08/11 07:58 PM
07/08/11 07:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
OP
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,120
Valencia, España
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really appreciate all your opinions and experience... THANKS!... Just waiting for hear more opinions and experiences about this.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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