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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: quickd100]
#1003963
06/01/11 07:33 AM
06/01/11 07:33 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325
Truckville, the capital of NY
85_Ram_4speed
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325
Truckville, the capital of NY
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I used 1 qt of ATF and filled the rest with 80w90. That seemed to give me the best feel when shifting. I tried all 80w90 and it was to hard to shift and straight ATF was just too loose feeling and gave me personally the wrong feel for shifting causing mis-shifts. So I compromised and mixed them.
Is there something out there better? Maybe, and yea, the Factory service manuals I have seen all called for straight ATF. But I will never run it straight in my stuff again. At the time too (about 10 years ago), ATF and 80w90 were CHEAP! Nowadays with dino oils approaching that of synthetics, I mght be inclined to try a synthetic when I get my 4-speed back together in a running vehicle.
Outcast Dodge guy.
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: gdonovan]
#1003964
06/01/11 09:09 AM
06/01/11 09:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree - and anyone who thinks ATF will cause damage is nuts!
As a factory tech in the 80's I saw a number of 833's (In trucks of course) with excessive bearing wear which in my opinion was caused by the factory fill of ATF used at the time for better MPG.
The lightest fill I would use would be a 15W40 or other such lube but not ATF
If you take not of the picture I attached - The 4 speed ( 23 spline ) that I am basing my post on has towed a camper, with a family of 4 and bikes on the roof - it was beat on heavily it's entire life. It had brass syncro's and they were in excellent condition and did not need to be replaced.
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: DJVCuda]
#1003965
06/01/11 09:17 AM
06/01/11 09:17 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
If you take not of the picture I attached - The 4 speed ( 23 spline ) that I am basing my post on has towed a camper, with a family of 4 and bikes on the roof - it was beat on heavily it's entire life. It had brass syncro's and they were in excellent condition and did not need to be replaced.
1) I stated nothing about syncros if you read my posting. Syncros with ATF I have no opinion, bearing wear on the other hand..
2) You are one example compared to the dozens of vehicles that sat in my work bay.
The roller bearings on the countershaft seem to really get hammered the most, ATF doesn't have great lubrication properties compared to gear oil or even motoroil.
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: gdonovan]
#1003966
06/01/11 09:27 AM
06/01/11 09:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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I agree gear oil.My 65 had that in it from the factory and still has it.Still shifts perfect.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: gdonovan]
#1003967
06/01/11 09:28 AM
06/01/11 09:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
The roller bearings on the countershaft seem to really get hammered the most, ATF doesn't have great lubrication properties compared to gear oil or even motoroil.
 The transmissions I have rebuilt that were ATF filled all needed the cluster gear shaft replaced , very noticeable wear pattern from the rollers.
If ATF is the godsend then why does one even have to replace the bearings? They should last forever, correct ?
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: DJVCuda]
#1003969
06/01/11 11:12 AM
06/01/11 11:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
maybe if it sits... like in your case - and does not get driven...lol
They were not my transmissions but transmissions I rebuilt for others.
Personally none of the 4 speed equipped Mopars I have owned ever had ATF in them when I bought them. What they had for a factory fill, I have no idea.
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: A990]
#1003972
06/01/11 02:32 PM
06/01/11 02:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750
Rio Linda, CA
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I see a difference between the ATF that the factory recommended in the sixties/seventies and the ATF+4 of today. "Slippery" fluid defeats the purpose of the synchro rings.
Even though some current standard transmissions use +4 from the factory they have different (composite?) synchros than the 833.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: DJVCuda]
#1003973
06/01/11 03:11 PM
06/01/11 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
well I do - and they were ATF when shipped around here.
Since I live further North than you I can only ASSuME that the factory fill here was also ATF but for some reason the owners of some/many cars switched to gear oil?
We will never agree on this. 
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#1003974
06/01/11 03:17 PM
06/01/11 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I see a difference between the ATF that the factory recommended in the sixties/seventies and the ATF+4 of today. "Slippery" fluid defeats the purpose of the synchro rings.
Even though some current standard transmissions use +4 from the factory they have different (composite?) synchros than the 833.
there is even a difference between the recommended fill of Dexron to the currently available Dexron/Mercron III , I wouldn't even think of using that +3 or +4 fluid.
John is also correct late model manual transmissions thaat call for ATF don't have BRASS syncro stop rings .
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: 76Beeper]
#1003976
06/01/11 03:59 PM
06/01/11 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
Have a read.............
Try again, thanks for playing.
Picture is from my battered 1970 service manual, not some "after the fact" book.
Note the factory fill is SAE140, if cold weather use 80W or 90W or ATF. Once warmer weather returns in bold it states to replace ATF with SAE140.
Gary
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: gdonovan]
#1003977
06/01/11 04:19 PM
06/01/11 04:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
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ATF is 5w oil. That's why bearings tend to gall or leave a wear pattern. I run a MIX of 80/90w gear oil and ATF to help shifting and reduce bearing wear. 
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: 85_Ram_4speed]
#1003980
06/01/11 10:49 PM
06/01/11 10:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
I used 1 qt of ATF and filled the rest with 80w90. That seemed to give me the best feel when shifting. I tried all 80w90 and it was to hard to shift and straight ATF was just too loose feeling and gave me personally the wrong feel for shifting causing mis-shifts. So I compromised and mixed them.
Is there something out there better? Maybe, and yea, the Factory service manuals I have seen all called for straight ATF. But I will never run it straight in my stuff again. At the time too (about 10 years ago), ATF and 80w90 were CHEAP! Nowadays with dino oils approaching that of synthetics, I mght be inclined to try a synthetic when I get my 4-speed back together in a running vehicle.
Gear oil is good but if you want something better, try Redline "MTL" which stands for manual transmission lube. It is a synthetic rated 70W90 from memory with additives designed to work with syncros. Twice I've had transmissions that were rattling and noisey on ATF and hard shifting on gear oil (not 833's). The MTL made a big difference. I'm guessing Passon's special lube - which I've never used - is similar. Summit and others sell it.
I use "sycromesh" in newer transmissions that call for it - 98 Neon, 08 Caliber, Tremtec - but I don't believe it is heavy enough for a 833. It would be like running ATF with the bearing wear concerns mentioned above.
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1003981
06/02/11 12:35 AM
06/02/11 12:35 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,414
Toronto
mshred
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,414
Toronto
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Quote:
In my A833 (23spline) I run 80-90W gear oil that says it works well in extreme pressure and hypoid type of rear ends. It also says it works well in manual transmission and differentials.
There is usually difficulty in shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear fairly consistently...and it seems to occur more often when the car gets warmed up.
The trans is in my 70 Charger RT with 512RB engine with a new Hurst competition plus shifter kit. Could this problem be caused by the type of fluid?
Or is there another thing that could be causing the problem
I am now worried about this also...I just got done filling up my A833 with 80W90 extreme pressure gear oil from the local auto parts house...Will I now have problems shifting it????
Wish I had known this before  
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Re: ATF4 in A833, good? bad? ugly?
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1003982
06/02/11 12:37 AM
06/02/11 12:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
In my A833 (23spline) I run 80-90W gear oil that says it works well in extreme pressure and hypoid type of rear ends. It also says it works well in manual transmission and differentials.
There is usually difficulty in shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear fairly consistently...and it seems to occur more often when the car gets warmed up.
The trans is in my 70 Charger RT with 512RB engine with a new Hurst competition plus shifter kit. Could this problem be caused by the type of fluid?
Or is there another thing that could be causing the problem
If it's GL5 that is your problem.
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