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#2415919 - 12/09/17 07:03 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Streetwize]
Streetwize Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 9619
Loc: Weddington, N.C.
My 440" W2 is a big torque motor but I'm discussing (with a fabricator buddy whose been doing some awesome work on it) whether it might be more practical to put a set of undersized shorties (Made by sanderson) in it because the chassis (66 A body) is so tight. It'll cost me big time up top but the combo just has so much torque in a 3000 pound car I doubt I'll miss it very much. I basically have a mopar version of a Buick 455 Stage 1 motor in terms of torque already, and then maybe 100+ HP on top of that....in a 1000 pound lighter car. At some point I'm asking....how much is enough? I keep reminding myself...the FAST BBMW and SBMW guys run high 10's with worse than that.

Sanderson will make a set of their DD-9 (63-66 A body) in 1 1/2" x 2.5" collector but with a W2 flange very reasonably. Not ideal....but it fits. I tried to get TTI to make a set of their full length step header but with the W2 flange but they wouldn't do it. I know the std vs W2 port mismatch really isn't that big a deal though, also I left my Exhaust port outlets well ported but essentially sized As cast

Ideally I would like to duplicate/improve the shorty design but in a 1 7/8" tube 3" or bigger collector, if it would fit an Early A it would fit any chassis, then maybe market them for any stroker small block combo. I think there could be a big market for big tube shorties for both ease of install plus when you run a full exhaust it's really hard to optimize a header anyway, so the diffesrnce from "ideal open header/collector" to undersized will be a whole lot less of a % difference with a reasonably quiet street exhaust. In 'real world" sense, if the collectors don't essentially free-flow at WOT all the way to the power peak (for whatever the reason) the "dyno" arguement loses a lot of its validity.


Edited by Streetwize (12/09/17 07:33 PM)
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#2415928 - 12/09/17 07:29 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24956
Loc: Oregon
I doubt that it matters much so if it was me I'd buy the set that fits the best. If the 1 7/8 headers fit nicely and allow you to pull the starter and get to all 8 plugs then I'd go with them. If you have to use the 1 5/8 headers in order to get to everything then use them.

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#2418528 - 12/14/17 01:28 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
Diplomat360 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1231
Loc: Windsor, ON, Canada
Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I am actually suprised that so many of you said "...do the 1-7/8"...!!!", but real world feedback is what matters.

My budget is already stretched on this project, so I may actually hold off on the TTI purchase, run another season with my new stroker but old LA headers (1-5/8"), and then move to the 1-7/8" pipes...the benefit would be that I should actually be able to roughly tell the difference between these sizes (disregarding the hit for the port miss-match between the LA and W2).

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#2418540 - 12/14/17 01:46 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master

Registered: 06/13/03
Posts: 50998
Loc: Romeo MI
Originally Posted By Diplomat360
Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I am actually suprised that so many of you said "...do the 1-7/8"...!!!", but real world feedback is what matters.

My budget is already stretched on this project, so I may actually hold off on the TTI purchase, run another season with my new stroker but old LA headers (1-5/8"), and then move to the 1-7/8" pipes...the benefit would be that I should actually be able to roughly tell the difference between these sizes (disregarding the hit for the port miss-match between the LA and W2).


How many rpms do you turn.. I ran a 1 3/4 set on my w-2
and it wasnt bad.. I was turning 7800 rpms.. I cant say
if there was any power loss but the time slip didnt see it
but the conditions might have been different(I dont remember)
wave
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#2418598 - 12/14/17 03:51 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: MR_P_BODY]
Diplomat360 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1231
Loc: Windsor, ON, Canada
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
How many rpms do you turn.. I ran a 1 3/4 set on my w-2 and it wasnt bad.. I was turning 7800 rpms.. wave

Oh my!!!

No no, no chance of me buzzing this thing up that high...I have the following Comp Cams custom hydraulic roller cam lined up: 240/248 @ 0.050, .547/.544 lift, 112 LSA. Basically the XR292HR grind, but 112 LSA instead.

With a 4k stall converter, 4.10 gearing in a 3600 lbs ride I would like it to top out at 6500 RPM, that has been the ceiling for my current 360 hydraulic flat tappet build and it seemed to work fine.

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#2420174 - 12/17/17 11:04 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
Rob C Offline
super stock

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 788
Loc: Earth
Why a 112?

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#2420186 - 12/17/17 11:24 PM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
B3422W5 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10340
Loc: Portage,michigan
With that heavy of car, only 4k convertor, with that 112 cam it will be a pooch out of the gate unless its like 15 to 1.
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69 Dart GTS, performance upgrades in progress
11.26@ 118.40 best so far. Stock 360 shortblock with eddie heads.
3285 race weight

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#2420267 - 12/18/17 08:51 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
Diplomat360 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1231
Loc: Windsor, ON, Canada
RobC & B3422W2:

Well, a 112 because this is a 2nd hand purchase. I picked up the cam for $150 a while back when I was contemplating trying the "roller thing" out and replacing my Hughes HE3844AL in the current 360 motor.

The feedback the two of you provided was similar to my previous old post on the subject of trying this out in my 360 motor.

Now that I am building a stroker engine however, I am thinking that the extra displacement will more than make up for any lost grunt due to the 112 vs 108 LSA. I guess I am looking for the 112 LSA to improve the street manners somewhat (the car has to run power brakes), while the 4k stall on the converter should give it a get-up-and-go when needed.

Beyond this, I used to run a Crower 31243 (224HDP CompuPro) hydraulic flat tappet some years ago in a street 360 build. That was a 112 LSA and about two steps smaller than this roller - 228/238 @ 0.050, .480/.504 lift. This cam worked well in my ride at that time, and that was with a 2300 stall converter. Going to the Hughes cam even required me to ditch the newly built 2800 stall in favour of the 4k, which has been one of the greatest improvement in the combination since I finished the car.

I was initially concerned about the LSA, but repeated calls and emails to Comp Cams tech-line resulted in these guys telling me that in a street combo the 112 will actually work better. No doubt the 108 or 110 grind would be more 'explosive', but that's most visible at the race track.

This is the first (and most likely not the last) time I'm going to try a roller though, so if the 112 is a totally wrong way to go about it I would love to understand this better. But ultimately, the budget is limitted, I have all the parts here already and if I'm about to give up a tiny amount of torque which in my street application will never translate to a noticeable impact, I will accept a bit of compromise.

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#2420275 - 12/18/17 09:26 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
UCUDANT Offline
Troll Hunter

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7869
Loc: New Mexico
I have 1-7/8 TTi's. Everything I read said that W2's liked to breath and most guys who ran them said they saw gains in the 1-7/8"s.

You will want to run a smaller spark plug so your socket can clear the header flange.

I needed motor mount shims http://www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsYear/67.72aBody.html to help clear a torsion bar

Your starter wires will be close to pipes, so you plan on some insulation

I run a 106 LSA Comp Cams roller cam and only have 10" of vacuum at idle (I hadn't planned on fuel injection) compression is 10.4 to 1. Hot Rod had a cam comparison article that actually showed how LSA difference's effect performance in June of 2017.


Do you run power brakes? The wider LSAand higher vacuum will help there if so.


Attachments
Valve adjustment.jpg



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#2420292 - 12/18/17 10:03 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
B3422W5 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10340
Loc: Portage,michigan
I swapped from a 107 lsa cam to a 112 a few years ago in an 11.5 compression 416 stroker.
It killed the 60 foot.
The guy who designed the cam knew the exact specs of my motor and old cam.
I didnt care about vacuum, just how the car ran.
_________________________
69 Dart GTS, performance upgrades in progress
11.26@ 118.40 best so far. Stock 360 shortblock with eddie heads.
3285 race weight

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#2420295 - 12/18/17 10:12 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 11477
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I dont really see any problems with the 112lsa in the OP's proposed build.
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#2420325 - 12/18/17 11:13 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: B3422W5]
Diplomat360 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1231
Loc: Windsor, ON, Canada
Originally Posted By B3422W5
I swapped from a 107 lsa cam to a 112 a few years ago in an 11.5 compression 416 stroker.
It killed the 60 foot...

Hmm...my car today has terrible 60' time, best being 1.87s...but that is because it is not setup for 1/4 mile racing at all. Instead the suspension is pretty stiff, HD leaf springs, sway bars, etc all in an attempt to make it stick to the road, lol, as much as an amateur build 3600 lbs vehicle can.

I'm curious though, so what were the before & after 60' times like?

In your case you were focused on max performance, and knowing the difference a move from 107 to 112 LSA had is pretty good stuff! Was the LSA the only change?

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#2420326 - 12/18/17 11:16 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: fast68plymouth]
Diplomat360 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1231
Loc: Windsor, ON, Canada
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I dont really see any problems with the 112lsa in the OP's proposed build.

fast68plymouth was kind enough to spend some time with me on the phone and through several emails to try to figure out the best options. Granted, and he was very up-front about this: the solid roller would be the top pick from a performance stand point, but given my indended use - this primarily being a street vehicle - it was reasonable to try the 112 LSA first.

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#2420340 - 12/18/17 11:36 AM Re: W2 stroker build: header primary tube size [Re: Diplomat360]
B3422W5 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10340
Loc: Portage,michigan
Originally Posted By Diplomat360
Originally Posted By B3422W5
I swapped from a 107 lsa cam to a 112 a few years ago in an 11.5 compression 416 stroker.
It killed the 60 foot...

Hmm...my car today has terrible 60' time, best being 1.87s...but that is because it is not setup for 1/4 mile racing at all. Instead the suspension is pretty stiff, HD leaf springs, sway bars, etc all in an attempt to make it stick to the road, lol, as much as an amateur build 3600 lbs vehicle can.

I'm curious though, so what were the before & after 60' times like?

In your case you were focused on max performance, and knowing the difference a move from 107 to 112 LSA had is pretty good stuff! Was the LSA the only change?


Dwayne specced the comp flat tappet cam. Car ran best ever 10.38 with it. 1.41 ish 60 foot
Straightline guy specced the 112. Car ran 10.55 best with it.
60 foot was off 6 or 7 as i recall. 107 cam 260/266, 112 was 259/268. Car didnt go anywhere till it was in high gear
Admittedly, the car lost almost no mph, just wouldnt ET near as good. I suspect with more squeeze and convertor the 112 might have shined, but i stated i was leaving that stuff alone, and was told it would still run better. It flat didnt.
_________________________
69 Dart GTS, performance upgrades in progress
11.26@ 118.40 best so far. Stock 360 shortblock with eddie heads.
3285 race weight

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