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#1188044 - 02/29/12 06:47 AM wiped a lobe... expensive lesson...update
471Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3699
Loc: Space Station #5
This stroker motor of mine has had its share of issues. Most recently, I've noticed some increasing tappet noise. I decide to remove the intake for inspection.

Found the #5 intake lifter to be partially digested.

This motor probably has less than 2000 miles on it. I've had the intake off several time along the way and each time inspected the lifters. This is a recent development.

Most recently, I replaced/upgraded the heads. Again, I noticed no cam or lifter wear while I had it apart. One thing I neglected to do after changing the oil this last time was to pour in the Comp Cams additive I've been using. In less that 200 miles, this is the result.

For the record, the cam is (was) a Comp Cams XE274HL. Nothing too crazy. Valve springs are beehives from IMM. Not sure of the pressures, but probably not much more than the double springs I ran on the old heads. Running iron adjustable rockers.

Right now I'm going with the theory that its an oil failure, with maybe a chinese lifter factor mixed in.

I haven't decided on my replacement plan yet. If I stick with Comp Cams, I'll probably step up a bit to a XE275HL. As far as lifters go, I'm not sure.

One thing for certain, I'm about to pay my "stupid tax".



Attachments
7095872-P1090630.JPG (242 downloads)



Edited by 471Magnum (03/07/12 03:03 PM)
_________________________
-Jim

I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.

Currently Mopar-less

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#1188045 - 02/29/12 06:58 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
Challenger 1 Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 24842
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
That sucks big time, I'm so sorry.
I would lean toward incorrect valve lash/preload.
It's so easy to get it wrong and is easy to get right when first building the motor. I do it with the intake off so I can see the lifter plunger so I can insure the proper preload at the lifter.

Good luck with your rebuild.
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#1188046 - 02/29/12 07:02 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
Rapid340 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 1899
Loc: oberlin, Ohio
Sorry to hear, what oil did you use?

Also, it is a really good habit to never remove more than one lifter at a time when inspecting them or transfering to a lifter box for storage. I'm not saying you did anything wrong but I know if I am not careful all I need to do is misplace one to have issues.
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Jeff Patterson 71 Duster 340, Factory Appearing 11.000 122.3 MPH on 6 in. M&H Volkswagen tires. Intelligence? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpM76ymlnbA

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#1188047 - 02/29/12 07:08 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: Challenger 1]
471Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3699
Loc: Space Station #5
I checked the pre-load a couple of times prior to this. That cam as always been a bit noisy. It's certainly possible that could be the cause. I'll definitely have the opportunity to set it with the intake off this next time.

It's also probably worth mentioning that the #5 cylinder also seems to have an oil consumption problem. The plug fouled-up with oil. I did a compression check to find that cylinder 20 psi lower than the others. That could be attributable to the reduced intake lift. Before I found the wiped lobe, I was leaning towards re-ringing that cylinder.
_________________________
-Jim

I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.

Currently Mopar-less

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#1188048 - 02/29/12 07:15 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
Dodgem Offline
master

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 5643
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Get good lifters and make sure you do not preload to much. Hughes offers
Cryogenic treatment for the lifters and probably the cams too. pay me now or pay me later.
My be time to step up to a hydraulic roller.

For sure always use a zinc additive!!!

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#1188049 - 02/29/12 07:46 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: Dodgem]
lewtot184 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: usa
check the seat pressure. some of those beehives have a lot of seat pressure for street flat tappet cam.

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#1188050 - 02/29/12 08:16 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: lewtot184]
MLR426 Offline
master

Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 4717
Loc: ILL

James,

Brad Penn or equivalent oil only with zinc and phosphur in it. If your using an additive what do you think is going on inside the engine until the additive is getting mixed in with the oil ?? It's also a gamble when adding the additive after the fact.

logan426 martin

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#1188051 - 02/29/12 08:50 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: MLR426]
A57_RT Offline
Parts Problem

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 323
With it that far gone, didnt it show signs of issues long before this point???

Ive run old junkers for years that ticked, knocked and the worst lifter I ever saw was a pushed in bottom, thats ugly....

Good luck on the fix though Its got to be bad parts these days, luck of the draw???

I say this simply because luckly ive not had this happpen ever, just a good stash of old stp and std breakin like we all do.

Im still trying to grasp the concept of metal on metal when most dont consider a cam a wear item.

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#1188052 - 02/29/12 08:51 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 12903
Loc: Mass
I've seen, HAD, and heard too many horror stories with Comp Cams to warrant any future involvement with purchasing any of their cams....might be another problem, but IMHO I'd suspect the cam

Mike

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#1188053 - 02/29/12 10:17 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: A57_RT ]
471Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3699
Loc: Space Station #5
I ran this motor a bunch before this. Had a saga with the heads leaking through the guides that took a long time to resolve, and probably masked and distracted me from this issue. Finally installed the RHS heads to take care of that.

That being said, I inspected the lifters on several occasions prior when I had the motor torn down for the head issues. No wear was noted.

It's always have had a lot of lifter noise. Tweaked the preload in an attempt to quiet it down some to no avail. It's possible that I over did it.

I used plenty of break in lube. The Comp Cams additive was at oil changes... but not this last one.

Biggest concern now is lifter trash and potential bearing damage.

As far as what cam and lifter package goes in next, I'm not sure. It'll will likely be a similar grind as I really liked the performance. I'll probably be talking with Hughes this weekend in Indy.
_________________________
-Jim

I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.

Currently Mopar-less

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#1188054 - 02/29/12 10:35 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 71046
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:



Biggest concern now is lifter trash and potential bearing damage.






There is no potential damage, it's a definite with that much worn off that lifter , I'm sure the cam looks as bad.

Metal chips on the piston skirts in the vicinity of that lobe and the oil pump will be scared because it sees unfiltered oil.

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#1188055 - 02/29/12 10:40 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: JohnRR]
Challenger 1 Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 24842
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:



Biggest concern now is lifter trash and potential bearing damage.






There is no potential damage, it's a definite with that much worn off that lifter , I'm sure the cam looks as bad.

Metal chips on the piston skirts in the vicinity of that lobe and the oil pump will be scared because it sees unfiltered oil.




Yup it's gonna be neccessary to replace all bearings, maybe rings and more.
Every inch and passage of the block, crank, rods and pistons will need to be cleaned.
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#1188056 - 02/29/12 11:54 AM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
471Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3699
Loc: Space Station #5
I'll start tearing into it further tonight. We'll see what I find when I pull a few caps.

The cam lobe is definitely damaged. I haven't turned the motor over to inspect the entire lobe, but yeah, the cam is toast, no doubt.

I'm not counting on getting lucky.
_________________________
-Jim

I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.

Currently Mopar-less

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#1188057 - 02/29/12 02:19 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
rave_12000 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 379
Loc: kansas city, mo
I lost a completely rebuilt 340 after 12 miles. Chalked it up to oil pump failure? Spun a main bearing and there was trash all over the motor. I would think that bearing material is softer than that of a litter. In my case all of the crank journals were scored. You might have to turn yours.

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#1188058 - 02/29/12 02:58 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: A57_RT ]
Frankenduster Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 12046
Loc: Granite Bay CA
These cams are a bit noisier than other types. I wasted 2 XE285s in my 493. I also figure that it was due to my ignorance about inadequate Zinc protection. I've since learned plenty on the subject, but there is always room for improvement.
Comp now offers the "Pro Plasma" treatment. Its a sort of surface hardening that along with proper oil, should last a long time. I'm thinking of switching back to that 285 since I liked the performance ans streetability of it.
Sorry for your troubles. Broken parts are a hard lesson to learn, huh?

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#1188059 - 02/29/12 03:18 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: Frankenduster]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 71046
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

These cams are a bit noisier than other types. I wasted 2 XE285s in my 493. I also figure that it was due to my ignorance about inadequate Zinc protection. I've since learned plenty on the subject, but there is always room for improvement.
Comp now offers the "Pro Plasma" treatment. Its a sort of surface hardening that along with proper oil, should last a long time. I'm thinking of switching back to that 285 since I liked the performance ans streetability of it.
Sorry for your troubles. Broken parts are a hard lesson to learn, huh?




is that pro plasma the same as the nitride they offer to the tune of $150 EXTRA ???

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#1188060 - 02/29/12 06:19 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: Frankenduster]
471Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3699
Loc: Space Station #5
I don't necessarily think it's the cam that's noisy, but the lifters that come with the kits. I'll be ordering a set of Topline Hylifts for the next cam.

I'm in the process of pulling the pan now. No obvious junk found when I drained the oil, but I didn't expect to find anything. Trying to bust the drag link from the idler arm. Got to feeling weak swinging the mini sledge. Decided I'd better take a dinner break. LOL
_________________________
-Jim

I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.

Currently Mopar-less

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#1188061 - 02/29/12 07:35 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
bigtail Offline
mopar

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 489
Loc: NE
I second the use of Hyd rollers. You would have been bucks and headaches ahead at this point. Be aware, Comp Cams had had catastruaphic failures with their roller hyd lifters. Maybe time to change to another brand. Do a google search.
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#1188062 - 02/29/12 08:52 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: 471Magnum]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 71046
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

I don't necessarily think it's the cam that's noisy, but the lifters that come with the kits. I'll be ordering a set of Topline Hylifts for the next cam.






It's the cam , XE have fast ramps and the valves tend to slam shut.

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#1188063 - 02/29/12 08:57 PM Re: wiped a lobe... expensive lesson [Re: JohnRR]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 71046
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Here's the rod bearings from a 360 with HOURS of run time , car was never driven other than up and down the driveway, lifter not nearly as bad as yours .


Attachments
7097432-360bearings002(Medium).jpg (161 downloads)


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